Kaepernick and RG3: Is There Anything Left?

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LACHAMP46

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CGI_Ram

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Both of these guys have athletic talent.

But both have demonstrated questionable judgement which are the major red flags in my book at a position of leadership. (Kaeperdick for the national anthem, Griffin for his wedding registry and self-centered traits).

I wouldn't touch either.
 

Faceplant

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On a side note, these may be the two ugliest QBs to ever play in the NFL.....and Terry Bradshaw played in the NFL!!
 

dieterbrock

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I still think Kaep will end up with the NY Jets. Although I would guess they are the team that "almost" signed him. I know Woody Johnson wanted him last year, there was talk of trade, but the football guys don't want him.
 

DaveFan'51

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Except for maybe the Jets, who don't have a QB to speak of, I can't think of any team that would be interested in Kap, and RGIII is finished!
 

snackdaddy

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It's his right. And it's fair to beat on him for being a crap QB. But dismissing his ability to use his free will and freedom is a very bad call. I think it was in part BS myself and have said so. But it is well within his rights, and undermining those rights is WRONG. There is also no NFL rule (right now) against it.

Opposing his rights is good for nothing, its bad for all of us to go there. I'd ask that you think about disagree but defend.

I don't disagree with that. That is what this country is all about. Even someone's right to disrespect a tradition if they feel strongly enough about it. But when others are offended by it, its also their right to express that.

I have a feeling teams are leery of what the public perception would be if they signed him. If he was a great quarterback I doubt teams would care. Offended fans would easily get over it if he won games for them. Unfortunately for him, he's not good enough for that.

Sad thing is, he's probably good enough to be a backup or low end quarterback. But his career may be over because of his unpopular stance regarding what many consider a cherished tradition.
 

LesBaker

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I don't disagree with that. That is what this country is all about. Even someone's right to disrespect a tradition if they feel strongly enough about it. But when others are offended by it, its also their right to express that.

I have a feeling teams are leery of what the public perception would be if they signed him. If he was a great quarterback I doubt teams would care. Offended fans would easily get over it if he won games for them. Unfortunately for him, he's not good enough for that.

Sad thing is, he's probably good enough to be a backup or low end quarterback. But his career may be over because of his unpopular stance regarding what many consider a cherished tradition.

I'm with you, and I don't agree with his method of delivering a message. I agree that if he were a great QB a team would jump at the chance to sign him.

I also think that if he was white this wouldn't have been as big of an issue. In fact one of the players that joined him, I don't recall which player on which team, came right out and said "we need a white guy to join us". And he was right because if someone respected in the NFL that was white and a star and a media darling, say ARodgers or MRyan, would have joined the cause it would have stirred more and better debate. And the debate has merit, it isn't perfect on either side, but it needs to be dragged out of the corner and placed in the center of the roof.

I still think there was some self promotion/attention seeking on his part. I don't like him as a person from what I have seen and heard.
 

LARAMSinFeb.

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I watched the Redskins closely during the Rams exile. I think RG3's main issue is physical fragility--if he could've kept doing what he was doing in 2012 he'd have been a star, but his body couldn't handle that. I think this also affected his mentality.

Secondly, his entire time in Washington he only had one player around him capable of doing anything remotely close to blocking, and that was Trent Williams. Plays rarely had any chance of developing, and RG3 never had a chance to evolve as a QB. By the time Wash. decided to develop an NFL OL, it was the Cousins era. Fragility resurfaced in Cleveland, and I think he may be done. I still think he's incredibly talented though, so who knows?
 
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IowaRam

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http://mmqb.si.com/mmqb/2017/03/15/nfl-colin-kaepernick-robert-griffin-iii-free-agent-quarterbacks

Kaepernick and RG3: Is There Anything Left?
Colin Kaepernick and Robert Griffin III changed the quarterback position in 2012 and seemed destined to dominate for years, but their magic turned out to be fleeting. Now free agents facing a soft market, both could be out of football this fall
by Andy Benoit

colin-kaepernick-robert-griffin-iii-quarterbacks-free-agency-650-362.jpg

Photo: Michael Zagaris/San Francisco 49ers/Getty Images :: Frank Jansky/Icon Sportswire/Getty Images

There has been a deluge of veteran quarterback moves since free agency opened on March 9. Several teams still have dire needs at the position. And yet we’ve barely heard a peep about free agent Colin Kaepernick. There’s one conspicuous reason why, and it has nothing to do with him not standing for the national anthem last year. It has everything to do with him not standing firm in the pocket.

We might as well bring Robert Griffin III into the conversation, too. He was released by the Browns earlier this week and appears destined to also watch from the sidelines while the QB market shakes out.

Both players had enchanting seasons in 2012. Griffin was the offensive rookie of the year, and Kaepernick became a starter midway through the season and led the 49ers to Super Bowl 47. Neither has come close to recapturing his magic.

There’s a simple explanation.

In 2012, both players presented threats with their legs in ways the NFL had never seen. Griffin ran the read-option. So did Kaepernick, though he was more dangerous as a scrambler. Over time, however, NFL defenses learned how to adjust to these mobile quarterbacks.

This is why playing in the pocket is so crucial. A quarterback can’t rely primarily on his legs. He must be able to drop back and make throws from behind his O-line. We hear this all the time, but nobody actually ever explains why. Let’s change that by further evaluating the Kaepernick/RG3 predicament.

In the NFL, the defenders are extremely smart and athletic, so everything happens fast. Dropping straight back and throwing is the most efficient way to counter this speed. It’s also the safest way. A quarterback at the top of his drop is squarely behind his three interior offensive linemen and flanked by his two biggest linemen, the tackles. He’s also at the physical point farthest away from both edge rushers, usually the defense’s most dangerous attackers.

Behind this five-man wall, not only is a quarterback not getting sacked, but he’s also less likely to have to throw with bodies around him. That makes a world of difference for arm strength and accuracy.

Even the best pass-protection can still leak, of course, which is why part of pocket passing is having the footwork and poise to subtly move in the pocket. In many ways, a quarterback is as responsible as the offensive line for the cleanliness of his throwing platform.

This is where Kaepernick and Griffin get into trouble. Both have a tendency to anticipate pressure that hasn’t arrived yet. They’ll take their eyes off the field and look at pass-rushers. They’ll break down when no one is around, converting themselves from would-be throwers into randomized scramblers. Often, no running lanes exist here, so this scrambling quickly leads to sacks or contested throwaways.

All of this ruins a play’s timing, which nullifies the offense’s best chance at counteracting the defense’s speed. Yes, occasionally you’ll see a quarterback break down, go off schedule and make a spectacular play. Think Russell Wilson and, especially, Aaron Rodgers.

But not Kaepernick or Griffin. Look closely and you see that neither is as proficient on the move as their styles of play suggest. Kaepernick is hindered by a long, angular throwing motion; Griffin simply has no idea of how to protect himself.

It’s no coincidence that the best pocket passers tend to be the best field readers. The two go hand in hand. Which brings us to the geometry of football. In addition to keeping an offensive play on schedule, a pocket passer also ensures the integrity of the angles in the passing game. He makes every eligible receiver a threat.

This is crucial in the NFL, where the hash marks are closer together than college and the ball, therefore, is always spotted almost right down the middle. You need a quarterback who can survey and attack the entire landscape from there.

As we’ve covered, Kaepernick and Griffin don’t have sufficient pocket poise to give themselves a chance to survey. Even if they did, there’s no evidence they would. As throwers, both struggle with timing and anticipation. And, based on how they look on film, both seem to have a disconnect with why a play is called. Too often you see basic designs with basic route combinations going unrecognized.

When that happens, life becomes difficult for the other 10 guys on offense. Linemen can’t be sure what pass-blocking technique to employ because they can’t trust that the man behind them will be where he’s supposed to be or throw when he’s supposed to throw. Receivers stop trusting that the ball will come to them when it should (should meaning either “on time” or “at all”), which eventually impacts their execution.

There are many flawed quarterbacks still on the market: Ryan Fitzpatrick, Jay Cutler, Geno Smith, Josh McCown. But these QBs at least have a demonstrated ability to play in the pocket. It’s infinitely easier to plug one of these guys in than it is to plug in Kaepernick and Griffin.

This raises an interesting question: Will either Kaepernick or Griffin even be in the league in 2017? Though blemished, both are still talented enough to be on rosters. However, their playing styles are so unique that they’d change an offense’s entire identity upon taking the field.

Ideally, you want your backup quarterback’s skill set to be similar to your starter’s. Unless it’s the Bills, who go to great lengths to accommodate Tyrod Taylor’s similar pocket-passing woes, no offense will be a natural fit for Kaepernick or Griffin.

We said it last year—wrongly, as it turned out—but it’s worth saying again: It’s possible we’ve seen the last of these guys.
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Merlin

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John Elway...oh, you young bucks didn't know, John had a cannon and could really run....this isn't about running ability, it's about the ability to adapt to the pro game....before you get...ruined...

Yep, and what Elway did was the scramble drill, where he bought time outside the pocket but behind the LOS so his wideouts could get open and he could throw it. He was a freak though man, Elway could have easily been an option QB and done very, very well at it. If I had a young QB like RGIII or Kaep I would make them watch Elway film as the example of where you want to be. But there are others as mentioned like not only Steve Young but also Tarkenton. Key is use your athleticism wisely with scramble drill, throw it out of bounds if you need to, but avoid the big hits to have a long career.

Oh and re: Kaep I'll say this: if I were an owner my team would not touch him. Not because he sat for a cause, but because he is a selfish piece of crap who is all about himself and the attention.
 

Prime Time

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I left out Florio's political remarks for the most part. If you want to read them click the link below.
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http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2017/03/19/why-wont-browns-take-a-chance-on-colin-kaepernick/

Why won’t Browns take a chance on Colin Kaepernick?
Posted by Mike Florio on March 19, 201

630775910-e1489956508380.jpg
Getty Images

Six years ago, then-Raiders coach Hue Jackson wanted Colin Kaepernick. One year ago, now-Browns coach Hue Jackson was willing to give up a third-round pick to get Kaepernick, and to pay him $7 million or more per year.

This year, the Browns could get Kaepernick for no trade compensation and a bargain-basement contract. But they don’t want him.

Doug Lesmerises of the Cleveland Plain Dealer argues that they should. The football reasons are undeniable; at the quarterback position, the supply doesn’t meet demand — especially given the trade demands of teams that have quarterbacks they’d be willing to move.

From a football standpoint, if the Browns wanted Kaepernick a year ago there’s no reason to not want him now. They opted to focus on Robert Griffin III, and that experiment didn’t go well. They seem to be interested in getting Jimmy Garoppolo (and maybe Kirk Cousins as the fallback), which suggests they aren’t sold on any of the incoming rookies.

So why aren’t they willing to give Hue Jackson a chance to do what Jim Harbaugh did little more than four years ago with Kaepernick, making him into a Super Bowl starter? The most likely explanation is the political firestorm Kaepernick started by refusing to stand for the National Anthem and the reasons he supplied for his decision.

Apart from concerns about a percentage of the Browns fan base objecting loudly to Kaepernick’s presence (if they’re still hanging around after years of ineptitude, it’s not like signing Kaepernick would get them to check out), owner Jimmy Haslam’s personal political beliefs quite possibly resulted in Kaepernick becoming disqualified from consideration.

Haslam could truthfully say he hasn’t instructed his football employees to not sign Kaepernick, in the same way Haslam truthfully can say he never instructed his football employees to pick Manziel.

Being the boss means not having to ask for something so expressly. Haslam, through stray comments or random questions, can make his views easily known. With the Kaepernick situation emerging last August, Haslam’s private reaction (whatever it may have been) to the situation would also say plenty about his potential reaction to the football people making Kaepernick one of the football players on the team Haslam owns.

This same mindset possibly accounts for the failure of other quarterback-needy teams to give Kaepernick a call.

Other teams should at least be kicking Kaepernick’s tires as a potential starter, from the Texans to the Jaguars (if they’re not sold on Blake Bortles) to the Broncos (who would have traded for him a year ago if he’d taken a pay cut). The fact that no one has even brought him in for a visit suggests that something more than football is influencing the process.

Hopefully, he’ll get a fair chance to compete for a roster spot and for playing time. Although Ron Jaworski’s assessment that Kaepernick could become one of the greatest quarterbacks of all time may be badly off the mark, Kaepernick isn’t so bad that he shouldn’t at least be getting a chance to show what he can still do.
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Because he sucks and, on top of that, they don’t need the baggage that comes with him.
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This is only marginally about politics if at all. The simple fact is that Kap can’t play at an NFL level anymore. The fact that he chose to kneel down for the national anthem didn’t help, but if he could play it wouldn’t matter.
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Just like it was his “right” to express his opinion. It is the team owners right to hire whomever they want. No story here, he chose to take that path, he should have known there may be consequences.
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Because a blue collar city like Cleveland has fans that want no part of an entitled jerkoff like crapernick.

Yeah he’ll stand now that he wants paid – so transparent.

Ownership knows his average talent is not worth the fan base backlash!

I sincerely hope no one signs him.
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Nobody wants Kaepernick because he’s terrible. He’s lost back there behind the Offensive Line. He’s a one read quarterback that waits for his receiver to get open and then throws it. If that guy doesn’t get open, he starts running around like a chicken with it’s head cut off.

The whole kneel-down thing isn’t the reason. It certainly cemented his situation now, but if he was any good, do you not think someone, SOMEONE, would take a chance on him? We’re talking about a league who gives convicted criminals a second chance. Winning would cure everything and make everybody forget about the kneel-down.

And stop with the whole “he took them to the Superbowl” bs. Geez, they would have won that Superbowl with Alex Smith. And maybe the following year too. Joe Flacco has won a Superbowl, Eli Manning has won two, Peyton Manning won a Superbowl when he was less than average compared to when he was great. Trent Dilfer, Phil Simms, Brad Johnson. On and on and on.

You guys give too much credit to the QB when the team wins. And too much blame when the team loses.

32 teams out there, and not one is willing to take a flier on a supposedly great QB.
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Simple. They just got done with the RGIII experience.

QBs who can run really have little incentive to develop pocket skills in JV, HS & College because they can just out-run trouble. So they pretty-much don’t.

Yet in every decade a few teams decide they can build the rare running quarterback. And since it’s rare, teams aren’t used to it, so those QBs succeed for a bit. However, the NFL catches up and the cycle repeats: peak early, fail, and learn the hard way that the NFL is the wrong place to learn pocket skills.

What kills me in all this is how the press, fans, and to some extent, NFL GMs keep failing to learn this lesson.

Running QBs who succeed are super rare. And most that do tend to have played in an offense where running was more the exception than the rule and they were trained as pocket passer. And that’s very uncommon in HS and College ball.
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Hey Florio, maybe it’s simply because he sucks? So what if he threw 16 TD’s and 4 INT last year? He was playing in Chip Kelly’s super-conservative, 2-yards-per-play offense that didn’t involve taking shots downfield. He was still 1-11 as a starter last year.
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You can’t be a distraction when you’re a bad player, his NFL days are probably over.
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As a 9ER fan. I can telll you I’ve seen enough passes at wide open WR’s ankles and overthrown passes from Kaep.

I’ll take my chances with Hoyer
 

Memphis Ram

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If players like Kaepernick and RGIII were physically up to it and teams allowed them to do what they do best instead of trying to force square pegs into round holes, both would still be stars. Long careers? No. But, short term stars like RBs nonetheless.

RGIII is too fragile to hold up. But, Kaepernick, being allowed to do what he does best, and with some talent around him (which many fans consider when discussing traditional drop back passers, but completely ignore with him) could still be the QB of a winning team.
 

tomas

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Kaepernick actually played reasonably good quarterback last year - 59% completion, 2200 yards, 16 TDs to 4 picks, a 90.7 rating, 468 yards and 2 TDs on the ground... statistically, maybe his 2nd-best season.
Kaepernick stat padding: Throwing short passes with an empty backfield-prevent defense- in the fourth quarter of a game in which his team was already trailing by a large margin.
 
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fearsomefour

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I said it at the time both these cats were running wild. Even after one of the talking heads (I think it was Jaws) had anointed SackorPick as the greatest QB EVER.


"I've seen a bunch of young running NFL QBs... but I've never seen an old one."
Yep.
You were not alone.
I got yelled at (not on ROD really) when I insisted the most over rate thing in the NFL is the running QB.
 

fearsomefour

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Steve Young was/is the best dual threat QB in the NFL.

IMO
What made him great was becoming great from the pocket and picking his spots to run.
Remember his epic TD run vs Minnesota in the playoffs?
Always hated the Whiners....but, Young was fun to watch.
 
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