Jon Gruden compares Manziel to Brett Favre

[moklerman]

I think Young was the better player. His scrambling ability put him ahead of Montana. They both were good QBs, albeit in a West Coast offense where you don't have to be amazing to be good.

Better athlete? Sure. Better QB? No way.

 

[Elmgrovegnome]

Better athlete? Sure. Better QB? No way.

Guess we just have to disagree. Montana really lit it up in Kansas City didn't he?

 

[moklerman]

Guess we just have to disagree. Montana really lit it up in Kansas City didn't he?

A question like that will really challenge your credibility. What were your expectations from a guy who had back surgery, elbow surgery and was 37/38 years old? Of course, he did lead the Chiefs to a the AFC Championship that year and made the pro bowl.

What did Young ever do when he wasn't on a GREAT team?

 

[SierraRam]

I am probably totally wrong but with his size and scrambling & running ability he reminds me of Fran Tarkenton (I am really showing my age!)!

Untill Montana came along, I thought Tark was the best ever! That comparison is very high praise, and yes, we're old

 

[Elmgrovegnome]

A question like that will really challenge your credibility. What were your expectations from a guy who had back surgery, elbow surgery and was 37/38 years old? Of course, he did lead the Chiefs to a the AFC Championship that year and made the pro bowl.

What did Young ever do when he wasn't on a GREAT team?

I could name a whole bunch of players that made the pro bowl and didn't deserve it. Some didn't even play an entire season. But I guess since I disagree with you my credibility is shot because you are apparently the authority on QB play.

 

[moklerman]

I could name a whole bunch of players that made the pro bowl and didn't deserve it. Some didn't even play an entire season. But I guess since I disagree with you my credibility is shot because you are apparently the authority on QB play.

You're welcome to support your opinion but making statements like yours without backing them up does bring your credibility on this topic into question. You claim Montana didn't "tear it up" in KC but he but up respectable enough numbers to go to the pro bowl(which, if you just look at his numbers may be misleading but when you consider his age, health and supporting cast, it isn't necessarily an undeserved appearance as you imply).

But why is Montana's time in KC even the gauge by which we're discussing who was a better QB? But even if it was, we're talking about Montana leading KC deeper into the playoffs than any other time Schottenheimer was the coach. And that was throwing to Willie Davis and J.J. Birden. Not exactly Dwight Clark and Jerry Rice.

 

[moklerman]

Untill Montana came along, I thought Tark was the best ever! That comparison is very high praise, and yes, we're old

Remember when Tarkenton held the all-time passing yardage and passing touchdown totals? Those numbers were thought to be ridiculous and unreachable. Nowadays, people don't even know who he is much less consider him among the all-time great QB's.

 

[jrry32]

Jon Gruden Compares Johnny Manziel to Brett Farve. And I compare Jon Gruden to one of those little hairs that grow alongside my anus.

I love those little hairs that grow alongside Elm's anus. They're just great, man.
-Jon Gruden

 

[Elmgrovegnome]

You're welcome to support your opinion but making statements like yours without backing them up does bring your credibility on this topic into question. You claim Montana didn't "tear it up" in KC but he but up respectable enough numbers to go to the pro bowl(which, if you just look at his numbers may be misleading but when you consider his age, health and supporting cast, it isn't necessarily an undeserved appearance as you imply).

But why is Montana's time in KC even the gauge by which we're discussing who was a better QB? But even if it was, we're talking about Montana leading KC deeper into the playoffs than any other time Schottenheimer was the coach. And that was throwing to Willie Davis and J.J. Birden. Not exactly Dwight Clark and Jerry Rice.

Well for some reason you used The mobility of Young as a detraction of his QB play. So, I used Montana's play in KC to show that on a lesser team he was no superstar. But back to your contention that Young was a better athlete but Montana was a better pure QB. That is absurd. Just because a guy has very good pocket awareness and is able to scramble doesn't take away his ability to QB. If Montana was a good scrambler then it would have made him an even better QB.

You can try to win the argument by calling into question my credibility instead of just making your point if you want. That is fine with me. It is telling when you rely on such tactics. You must be a lawyer. I didn't know I was in court or even that my credibility was in question.

Like I already said we can just disagree about who was the better QB. I don't even know why I engaged in the discussion. I don't think either of them, or any West Coast QB for that matter, is the best ever, nor do I care.

 

[moklerman]

You are very confused, I'll give you that. Nowhere did I say that Young's scambling ability was a negative. I credited him for being a good scrambler. That does not mean that it made him a poorer QB. It doesn't mean it and I didn't write it. Young was a better athlete, better scrambler and better runner than most QB's. He had very many good qualities as a QB. But Montana's strength as a QB was the mental aspect of QB'ing. Young did not match up to Montana in that regard IMO and I think it shows when comparing their post season careers.

So, I used Montana's play in KC to show that on a lesser team he was no superstar.

In what way do you think you showed that? Montana and KC were all the buzz that year. Paired with Marcus Allen, they were a team all about stars on a new team making a run at the Super Bowl. And they did make a run.

But back to your contention that Young was a better athlete but Montana was a better pure QB. That is absurd

You can try to win the argument by calling into question my credibility instead of just making your point if you want. That is fine with me. It is telling when you rely on such tactics. You must be a lawyer. I didn't know I was in court or even that my credibility was in question.

It's telling to me that you feel you have to be on trial to offer credible statements.

Like I already said we can just disagree about who was the better QB. I don't even know why I engaged in the discussion. I don't think either of them, or any West Coast QB for that matter, is the best ever, nor do I care.

So, you're choosing to take your ball and go home?

It's just conversation. It's supposed to be anyway. I don't mind you thinking that Young was a better QB but I think your opinion is based on false information. I just asked for you to support some of your beliefs. For example, linking me to profootballreference doesn't actually equal documented proof that Montana's 49ers teams were unarguably better than Young's. I don't even know what statistics you're basing that statement on. I mean, from what you've written, Montana's 49ers were head and shoulders better than Young's teams. I don't see how one can support that opinion. I don't see how you've even tried to.

I still haven't seen any reference to the point I offered in relation to Montana's time in KC. What about Young's time in Tampa Bay? If Montana's time in KC means something, what does his time in TB say about Young? He wasn't even outplaying DeBerg.

If you want, let's just stick to one major point. Montana's numbers went up in the postseason, Young's went down. Young's get to the point of worrisome if you take away that ridiculous mismatch, stat-padding day against SD.

 

[Elmgrovegnome]

Keep playing games. See where it gets you.

 

[Prime Time]

Time out gentlemen.

 

[moklerman]

Keep playing games. See where it gets you.

All I'm trying to do is be civil and clarify/substantiate points in a conversation.

 

[moklerman]

Time out gentlemen.

Timeout from what? There isn't anything personal or derogatory going on.

 

[Prime Time]

Timeout from what? There isn't anything personal or derogatory going on.

With all due respect, I believe that this thread is heading in that direction and would really appreciate that not happening.

 

[LesBaker]

With all due respect, I believe that this thread is heading in that direction and would really appreciate that not happening.

If it was me, and I'm not trying to tell you how to do your job, but I'd let them know they are one step away from getting a can of username busted out on them.

 

[SierraRam]

Remember when Tarkenton held the all-time passing yardage and passing touchdown totals? Those numbers were thought to be ridiculous and unreachable. Nowadays, people don't even know who he is much less consider him among the all-time great QB's.

You're right, and those people are wrong. I hated the Vikings with a passion rivaled by only the Cowboys back in the day. But Tark is one of the all-time greats, and the Manzel comparisons are silly. (Untill Johnny Foosball retires with every passing record) yeah right...

 

[Prime Time]

If it was me, and I'm not trying to tell you how to do your job, but I'd let them know they are one step away from getting a can of username busted out on them.

I prefer the kinder, softer method but thanks for the advice.

 

[Faceplant]

El Oh El at Montana not "lighting it up in KC". AFC championship and a Pro Bowl. How did Young do in Tampa Bay???

El Oh El at 2 Rams fans arguing over which 49er QB was better (ahem, Montana).

Back to the topic at hand. I believe Johnny will be successful at the next level...but then again, I thought Tebow would be too.....and he kinda WAS. :-/

 

[moklerman]

El Oh El at Montana not "lighting it up in KC". AFC championship and a Pro Bowl. How did Young do in Tampa Bay???

El Oh El at 2 Rams fans arguing over which 49er QB was better (ahem, Montana).

Back to the topic at hand. I believe Johnny will be successful at the next level...but then again, I thought Tebow would be too.....and he kinda WAS. :-/

I don't mind having non-Rams discussions and pretty much expect things to drift that way, especially in the offseason. Certainly don't have to like the guys to respect them and I think too many people forget how good some of these guys actually were and fail to look at them objectively. Taking various factors into account.

In Favre's and Montana's cases, I think a big consideration is the culture change the each had to overcome. Green Bay and SF were both really bad for a long time before they each took over and that they became league stars is a part of the testament to what they were able to do. Sure, Steve Young and Aaron Rodgers both came in and did well, but that was for teams in a totally different place.