JL, whipping boy

[Memphis Ram]

Seems we are going in circles here @HometownBoy

First of all, in your first post in this thread you said that JL was solid and a smart player. Since then he has grown to pretty above average in your view. Maybe that's the same to you. I don't know. Either way, I'll give him somewhere in between the two for my taste.

As far as financials, I was merely answering what I deemed to be a general question. But, sure the cap can be manipulated to do whatever most teams want from year to year. However, minus a paycut, these guys still get their money and each of these guys contracts can have an effect on future contracts of current players or possible acquisitions. My only point there.

And sorry, but if the mention of guys or their potential replacements having to be Hall of Famers isn't viewed as an overreaction, then I simply must not know the definition of the term. And take note that the calvary and hero worship comments of which I meant no offense (which apparently were deemed offensive) came afterwards.

BTW, I never said that anyone said that JL55 or Laurinaitis were untouchable. I said that they are defended as if they were untouchable. There's a difference.

I agree that both are valuable parts of the team. But, I do believe that this defense can be improved with better players at their positions. And the same could be said about almost every position. But, I have no doubt that the others wouldn't or don't get the same overreactionary defenses. Sorry.

 

[blue4]

I have no problem with them garnering respect. They both deserve it. But, when that respect makes them appear to be untouchable for one to point out a negative or two, then it just seems more like hero worship which leads to over exaggerations to me.

Even here, it appears that we are defending whether or not Laurinaitis has been sole the cause of wins and losses.

I don't think they are untouchable to discuss. It's just I don't agree that they need to be replaced. Part of me always wonders where the issues with speed comes from in regards to both those players. Long will probably by a long look next year due to contract.

 

[Memphis Ram]

I think you're simply having a hard time only because it's more difficult to criticize players who are playing well. I mean, sure, no one is perfect. But JL's contract is no where near out of line with what he brings to our team.

It's pretty obvious how the coaches feel. They spend a first round pick on an OLB who still is no threat to even back up the second round pick currently occupying the MLB position. Speaking of the backup, they bring in competition every year for Dunbar and when he gets suspended for performance enhancing drugs, they only begrudgingly bring him back to assist with our ailing run defense. Last year they bring in Barron, a safety for help at OLB, and this year we have Ayers competing with him.

At what point do we admit that those are just big shoes to fill? I know William's loves to exercise the threat of an A gap blitz as a strategy, but I don't think we should be too worried about Laurinaitis' sacks or tackles for loss.

As a friend once told me, the better your defensive line, the less heroic your linebackers look.

This may sound like blashphemy to some, but shoes too big to fill or too big of a contract to move on from yet? It's possible that both are factors.

As I recall, a seriously talent depleted team extended him the same year Fisher came aboard. Again, team needs don't influence players availability. And from what I read Alabama LB C.J. Mosley was one of the options this team considered if Donald weren't on the board last year, so who really knows?

 

[blue4]

I don't believe anyone here believes that they are JAGs.

And team needs don't influence player availability. For example, you don't pass on DE Joey Bosa, if available, on draft day because you have a greater need elsewhere.

As far as drafting, sometimes I agree, sometimes I don't. Depends on who you have already and what I think of the player being drafted. For example, Clowney and Winston. Conventional wisdom said if they are there, draft them no matter what. I wouldn't have drafted either, unless I just had no one at all to suit up.

 

[HometownBoy]

Seems we are going in circles here HometownBoy.

First of all, in your first post in this thread you said that JL was solid and a smart player. Since then he has grown to pretty above average in your view. Maybe that's the same to you. I don't know. Either way, I'll give him somewhere in between the two for my taste.

As far as financials, I was merely answering what I deemed to be a general question. But, sure the cap can be manipulated to do whatever most teams want from year to year. However, minus a paycut, these guys still get their money and each of these guys contracts can have an effect on future contracts of current players or possible acquisitions. My only point there.

And sorry, but if the mention of guys or their potential replacements having to be Hall of Famers isn't viewed as an overreaction, then I simply must not know the definition of the term. And take note that the calvary and hero worship comments of which I meant no offense (which apparently were deemed offensive) came afterwards.

BTW, I never said that anyone said that JL55 or Laurinaitis were untouchable. I said that they are defended as if they were untouchable. There's a difference.

I agree that both are valuable parts of the team. But, I do believe that this defense can be improved with better players at their positions. And the same could be said about almost every position. Sorry.

Well of course they are, to me I can't see what else constitutes as solid. Average? Average really doesn't particularly come across as solid to me. JAG obviously isn't anywhere near solid and scrubs even less so. Above average to me is the bare minimum to solid.

They do have effects on future contracts or possible acquisitions, but if you've thought of that what makes you think that the Rams haven't thought of it in nitty gritty details several times more over than us? They've thought this contracts through a lot more than any of us probably EVER will, so I'm comfortable in saying that they're probably comfortable with what they're giving them.

Also I really don't see a difference in saying I wasn't saying they were saying they were untouchable, I was just saying they act like they are. At the base root that's still saying that people are out here making it seem like the two are untouchable, which they are not to anybody. So you might have to explain that difference to me.

Is that any more of an overreaction then to conversely call them all hero worshiping or manloving for said response? Besides, as already stated many see them as above average and there's little above above average besides getting into hall of famer or perennial star territory. Seems like a natural progression to me.

Of course they were deemed offensive, saying there's no chance of them being deemed impartial is being obtuse. If the opposite were true would you consider the person arguing against you as not being offensive? If you were just called a blind hater, or a jaded ex or demonizing James or being a hatedom or a basher would that be of no offense to you. Calling into question anybody's personal feelings of a player to bolster your argument is always going to go over poorly, I honestly don't know what you expected.

And I believe that they already make the defense great and they're vital cogs in a defense that's good enough as is and think it's unrealistic to expect to make the upgrade and then not suffer anywhere else and be right back to square one. That, in my mind and others, doesn't come across as hero worship any more than your point comes across a mindless villainizing. Respect other's opinions is all I'm saying and don't necessarily attack it just because you disagree with it.

 

[Memphis Ram]

Here's some excerpts.

Not to mention the whole argument Jrry and Rmfnlt got into, with clips, screenshots and NFL.com videos. Something that hasn't yet happened in this thread. Call me dense, but I think the defense of JJ was a lot harsher than this threads defense of JL55.

Some of the subject matter was harsher, but I simply don't see the same type of defenses. Sorry.

 

[Zaphod]

This may sound like blashphemy to some, but shoes too big to fill or too big of a contract to move on from yet? It's possible that both are factors.

As I recall, a seriously talent depleted team extended him the same year Fisher came aboard. Again, team needs don't influence players availability. And from what I read Alabama LB C.J. Mosley was one of the options this team considered if Donald weren't on the board last year, so who really knows?

I can't lie, I held the Mosley option in high hopes last year as well, and I was also very interested in Martin. But I still can't complain about the Donald pick. I know they will eventually spend another first round pick on a linebacker though.

At least we can be excited about how well Ayers works out this year. I think about a stunt option on A gap blitz as being a big sell on that threat at the least.

 

[HometownBoy]

Some of the subject matter was harsher, but I simply don't see the same type of defenses. Sorry.

Of course not, they weren't the same.

They were harsher and more ardent than anything in here.

 

[Memphis Ram]

Well of course they are, to me I can't see what else constitutes as solid. Average? Average really doesn't particularly come across as solid to me. JAG obviously isn't anywhere near solid and scrubs even less so. Above average to me is the bare minimum to solid.

They do have effects on future contracts or possible acquisitions, but if you've thought of that what makes you think that the Rams haven't thought of it in nitty gritty details several times more over than us? They've thought this contracts through a lot more than any of us probably EVER will, so I'm comfortable in saying that they're probably comfortable with what they're giving them.

Also I really don't see a difference in saying I wasn't saying they were saying they were untouchable, I was just saying they act like they are. At the base root that's still saying that people are out here making it seem like the two are untouchable, which they are not to anybody. So you might have to explain that difference to me.

Is that any more of an overreaction then to conversely call them all hero worshiping or manloving for said response? Besides, as already stated many see them as above average and there's little above above average besides getting into hall of famer or perennial star territory. Seems like a natural progression to me.

Of course they were deemed offensive, saying there's no chance of them being deemed impartial is being obtuse. If the opposite were true would you consider the person arguing against you as not being offensive? If you were just called a blind hater, or a jaded ex or demonizing James or being a hatedom or a basher would that be of no offense to you. Calling into question anybody's personal feelings of a player to bolster your argument is always going to go over poorly, I honestly don't know what you expected.

And I believe that they already make the defense great and they're vital cogs in a defense that's good enough as is and think it's unrealistic to expect to make the upgrade and then not suffer anywhere else and be right back to square one. That, in my mind and others, doesn't come across as hero worship any more than your point comes across a mindless villainizing. Respect other's opinions is all I'm saying and don't necessarily attack it just because you disagree with it.

For clarity, I tend to rate them as JAG, solid (average), good (above average), to great.

And I'm sure that Rams have thought about financials more than all of us. However, that doesn't mean that one has to agree with all of their decisions. Sorry.

I can't further explain the difference in someone actually saying something vs. not saying something. Sorry again.

Finally, I don't want to get into which so-called overreaction was greater or which defense was harsher (besides the point) than the other. I'm sorry if I've offended you with my comments. That was never my intent. I'm done here.

 

[blue4]

I can't lie, I held the Mosley option in high hopes last year as well, and I was also very interested in Martin. But I still can't complain about the Donald pick. I know they will eventually spend another first round pick on a linebacker though.

At least we can be excited about how well Ayers works out this year. I think about a stunt option on A gap blitz as being a big sell on that threat at the least.

I think at least two years before we see a MLB go first round. Unless Mannion looks great and the great OL experiment goes well.

2nd or 3rd round I can see, but we've needed depth at MLB for a couple of years so I'd think that's a wise move. Problem with JL playing every down for years is the mileage.

 

[Zaphod]

I think at least two years before we see a MLB go first round. Unless Mannion looks great and the great OL experiment goes well.

2nd or 3rd round I can see, but we've needed depth at MLB for a couple of years so I'd think that's a wise move. Problem with JL playing every down for years is the mileage.

That's an interesting take. I wonder what they do if the OL experiment doesn't work out, and I'm really concerned with Saffold's shoulder injury. No matter what, I feel like we'll be exposed at center this year, regardless of how they address that next year. Also, I'm rather hoping that we don't have to find out about Mannion's true worth to the team any time soon.

 

[blue4]

That's an interesting take. I wonder what they do if the OL experiment doesn't work out, and I'm really concerned with Saffold's shoulder injury. No matter what, I feel like we'll be exposed at center this year, regardless of how they address that next year. Also, I'm rather hoping that we don't have to find out about Mannion's true worth to the team any time soon.

I was the against the Mannion pick but now I'm hoping that he shows enough to move on from Foles and be the long term answer. Not that Foles is bad but...

 

[RamFan503]

And the only time I've gotten or seen such responses with the current roster is when Long or Laurinaitis are discussed. It's as if they've replaced Warner as untouchable to say anything negative about.

I've seen plenty of people note his short comings and also that CL is not at the level of Quinn. I think the thing you are seeing is that most people acknowledge that JL and CL have some short comings but so do probably 75% of the players on a given team - even if they are SB winners.

Just because many believe JL is a very good MLB, doesn't mean they also believe he is untouchable. If the timing was right and the value believed to be there, I'm sure many here would also be in with drafting his future replacement. Many may disagree on what that replacement would look like but still.

Should we have taken that player instead of Gurley this year? Instead of Donald last year? IMO - no. But it doesn't mean I can's see flaws in other players - including a MLB that I happen to like quite a bit. It occurs to me that saying some here believe JL is untouchable is just a way of dismissing what they see in him.