Is it time to start a complete shuffle of the Rams O-line?

[JKBOGEN]

Is it time to start a complete shuffle of the Rams O-line?

http://www.downtownrams.com/single-...o-start-a-complete-shuffle-of-the-Rams-O-line

October 11, 2016 | By:Jake Ellenbogen




The Rams are 3-2 but that's with no offensive line and a quarterback that is average at best. Well, things aren't working for the o-line. However, there has only been a minimal shuffle and it has taken place at right guard. I think it's time to make some changes up front. How bad has this unit been?Our new writer Ed Henderson wrote about the offensive line coach here Check it out below according to Pro Football Focus.

LT Greg Robinson 36.1 (76 overall OT)
LG Rodger Saffold 66.4(47th overall OG)
C Tim Barnes 49.6(32nd overall C)
RG Jamon Brown 67.0(44th overall OG)
RG Cody Wichmann 50.4(57th overall OG
RT Rob Havenstein 70.0(43 overall OT)

Here's also what Pro Football Focus had to say in their"Ranking all 32 NFL offensive lines entering week 5" article

31.) Los Angeles Rams

"The Rams are winning games, but it’s certainly not thanks to their offensive line, which has been playing poorly. LT Greg Robinson can probably safely be labeled a bust at this point, and has allowed 14 total pressures this season. He is currently the75th-ranked OT at PFF, with a grade of 35.4. Rob Havenstein may be the best of the group this season, and his overall grade is just 72.1, with three of the five Rams’ O-line members grading lower than 53.0. RB Todd Gurley has gained just 2.6 yards per carry, and 193 of his 217 rushing yards have come after contact, meaning, on average, the blocking has gained him 0.3 yards before being hit, or just under a foot per rush."

This is exactly why it's time to mix things up. Clearly this personnel isn't working and it's not magically going to start working. Lets just start by saying the worst graded offensive lineman is the former no.2 overall pick in 2014 and happens to be playing the second most important position on offense. It's been time for the Rams to move Greg Robinson back inside at guard. He clearly has no clue what he is doing because his technique is an absolute mess and consistently causes him to get beat inside forcing him to hold his man which ends up being a penalty.

The second lowest offensive lineman grade is the center Tim Barnes who in no way has earned the right to start. He has been a train-wreck from the word go and the Rams refuse to admit it. Of course, during the off-season the Rams had a potential stud at center in Eric Kush. They oddly enough decided to let him go and the fact of the matter is he was probably better than Barnes. As shoddy as Demetrius Rhaney's career has played out you can't get much worse than worst starter in the league and that's Barnes.

So what's next then? Well I think you need to give the backups a shot. Throw in Pace Murphy at Left tackle and move Robinson in at Left guard. Murphy was shocking to see make the 53-man roster. I think it's time for us to see what they have in this guy. Saffold has spent plenty of time in the past at Right guard and Robinson was a Left guard back in his rookie year. As far as Right tackle goes Rob Havenstein is our best offensive lineman so it would be foolish to bench him and obviously it's time to bench Barnes. What would that leave the Rams with?

LT Pace Murphy
LG Greg Robinson
C Demetrius Rhaney
RG Rodger Saffold
RT Rob Havenstein

These kinds of mass shuffles either pay huge dividends or completely cripple the offense however, the Rams are 3-2 with an offensive line that seriously couldn't be any worse. Nothing is working in the pass blocking or run blocking game and it's time to retool and get ready for when Jared Goff takes over. This may not be the sexiest looking line but that you can blame the Rams front office for. Regardless the Rams need to work with what they have and this is their best option without trading assets to acquire someone.

 

[LumberTubs]

"These kinds of mass shuffles either pay huge dividends or completely cripple the offense."

I'll go with the latter.

There's no denying that Robinson isn't playing well especially in the run game. I posted something in a Gurley thread last week where I noted that he was allowing defenders to run free from our left hand side so that they were making tackles at the LOS on our right hand side.

However, I also remember how bad Darrell (?) Williams was at LT during pre season. I know Williams isn't being touted as a possible replacement here but it does demonstrate that things can get a lot worse than they are.

 

[Ballhawk]

LT Greg Robinson 36.1 (76 overall OT)
LG Rodger Saffold 66.4(47th overall OG)
C Tim Barnes 49.6(32nd overall C)
RG Jamon Brown 67.0(44th overall OG)
RG Cody Wichmann 50.4(57th overall OG
RT Rob Havenstein 70.0(43 overall OT)

While not great, everyone there ranks as a starting player in the NFL except for Robinson. He should be better by now and I think that is on the coaching.
I think that they have already damaged the line's play by rotating them too much during the preseason, so doing more of that will just destroy what little continuity they have acquired.

 

[fearsomefour]

You have to have better people to rotate in.
The play of Robinson is one of the major reasons I would hesitant to play Goff. Not because of injury risk but because in most cases the ball needs to come out quickly.
Robinson is strange. He can stretches where he looks fine....on deeper throws that take 3 or more seconds there have been times he has been fine....then there are plenty of other times where the ball is out under 2 seconds and his guy is bearing down. Havenstein isent much better in terms of staying in front of speed rushers but he keeps is balance and is long enough to push them around the QB most times. It can look ugly but it works most times. Saffold, who should the best lineman, has been subpar this year. Particularly in the running game which surprises me.
If it is just a talent issue then the Rams can't identify talent on the line.....big trouble. It could be mismatching skill sets with the scheme....another issue. I it is neither of those then what is left? Coaching?
Robinson plays with terrible balance. Physically he should have it all. After a solid preseason he has regressed. I don't know if I have ever seen a guy lunge more pass blocking. So, either his touted athletic ability is not there and he can not stay in front of pass rushers or his technique is so rudimentary bad he ends up off balance.....either way that is death for a LT.
Barnes and Wichmann have been ok from what I have noticed. Brown actually pass blocked when he came in vs Buffalo which he didn't do all preseason.
After this year the Rams need to probably let Saffold and his big salary go (unless he improves) and use that money to find a veteran (not old) lineman who can start and hold down one of the O line positions.

 

[Curt760]

I have been hoping Greg Robinson would finally come around and for the first few games I was satisfied even the penalties he got I was okay with. BUT now, not so much. After going back and reviewing the games and just looking at line play it appears to me Robinson is best suited for guard. When he has someone in front of him and he knows that is who he is blocking he is pretty good. When DE or LB sets up wide Robinson struggles and gives up way too much ground. Even blocking downfield on many occasions he cannot seem get on a man they just run around him. Whenever the DE tries get thru the gap between him and LG he gets beat pretty quickly.
Oline in whole, way too much push up the middle. Gurley seem to meet contact behind the line on half his carries.

 

[JKBOGEN]

Greg Robinson's replacement cost is crippling knowing we could have had our choice of any of 8 pro bowlers...CRIPPLING! However, I believe he would be a good OG

 

[HellRam]

Greg Robinson's replacement cost is crippling knowing we could have had our choice of any of 8 pro bowlers...CRIPPLING! However, I believe he would be a good OG

Agree Robinson really is a overly athletic Guard at his core. Fans forget Jake Matthews and Tyler Lewan ran faster cone and shuttle times then Robinson. Everybody fell in love with Gregs 40 time (Lewan still had a better 40). While Robinson is quick for his size, he's actually on the slower side for a LT. And in Robinsons 3rd season their just isn't much denying it at this point. GRob has always struggled mightly against speed rushers and their isn't much evidence to suggest that will change.

At this point I wouldn't mind switching Saffold and and Robinson around. IMO Robinson can be a probowl Guard. Might as well get full value from him. That said the Rams probably finish the season with GRob at LT just too make sure they give him every opportunity.

 

[Jacobarch]

Greg Robinson's replacement cost is crippling knowing we could have had our choice of any of 8 pro bowlers...CRIPPLING! However, I believe he would be a good OG

a lot of people said he would be a better guard day 1. But the Rams coaches are too prideful and stubborn to see it that way. It will probably end up costing Fisher his job.

 

[JKBOGEN]

Agree Robinson really is a overly athletic Guard at his core. Fans forget Jake Matthews and Tyler Lewan ran faster cone and shuttle times then Robinson. Everybody fell in love with Gregs 40 time (Lewan still had a better 40). While Robinson is quick for his size, he's actually on the slower side for a LT. And in Robinsons 3rd season their just isn't much denying it at this point. GRob has always struggled mightly against speed rushers and their isn't much evidence to suggest that will change.

At this point I wouldn't mind switching Saffold and and Robinson around. IMO Robinson can be a probowl Guard. Might as well get full value from him. That said the Rams probably finish the season with GRob at LT just too make sure they give him every opportunity.

Lewan is rated the #1 LT in Pro Football Focus

 

[thirteen28]

Can we look at the coaching and blocking scheme before we start shuffling players? Can we first consider whether it is a good fit for the respective skill sets of our 5 starters?

As we ended last season, our OL was playing decent. GRob was on a definite upswing, showing solid improvement. Barnes was playing better, Havenstein was giving us hope for the future, and Brown and Wichman both looked good for rookies. Now it doesn't seem like any of these guys are looking particularly good, and if they've ALL regressed at the same time, it's too much to write off as a mere coincidence. I honestly don't remember if they were using the zone blocking scheme last year (can someone help me out with this?), but if they weren't, that would be the first place I looked. This is also the first year that it is truly Boras's offense, as he was running Cignetti's last year. Did he change something regarding what the guys do up front?

Furthermore, I'm not as worried about pass blocking as I am about run blocking. Not that the former is great, but it's not terrible either. It's certainly nothing like the horror shows we saw in the late Bulger era where he was getting pulverized almost every time he dropped back to pass. And there are at least a few of the sacks taken this year that are on Keenum for holding the ball way too long.

I want to build continuity, so before they start shuffling players, I hope they turn over every rock and basically look at everything. If they just start shuffling guys around without a full understanding of the problem, it will not only fail to solve it, but instead will exacerbate it.

As an aside, I have to questions the PFF rankings if they rank Jamon Brown higher than Roger Saffold. That's just not right at all.

 

[woofwoofmo]

For anyone basing their opinions on what Pro Football Focus says, you might want to read this article. I know for a fact that the Rams OL and related coaches think they're a joke and a disservice as they can misrepresent so badly what is actually occurring on the field.

http://www.catscratchreader.com/201...ers-rail-on-pro-football-focus-grading-system

 

[LACHAMP46]

I actually liked Lewan as the best LT...but I liked Greg too....just a little less... I remember someone in here said that Lewan is a bad character dude...did some silly stuff...something with his roommate...told a girl to leave him alone...something...

Anyway...on to the PFF grades...

The coaches feel that Wichman has played better than Jamon Brown...So do I...but my lying eyes are NOT to be believed...or so says PFF....

Which is why I don't place much stock in PFF....

In fact, the number of missed blocks, rather, the way the scheme dictates that some blockers run past defensive linemen...ignore guys that seem to be able to make a play...and DO...Leads me to believe that coaching has something to do with the line play overall....Some type of confusion...which I don't place entirely on Greg...In fact, I'm of the opinion that Saffold has played the worst, followed closely by Barnes...then Brown...only because he hasn't played as much...and Saffold gets my low rating because as a vet, he shouldn't be as confused as the 2nd & 3rd year players...Barnes will always be on my radar, since the most destructive pressure is always from up the middle...Several times I've noticed G-Rob attempting to push his man around the pocket, only to see Keenum (yep, him again) fail to step up in the pocket and deliver the ball....

Back on to PFF...I wonder, how do they rate a sack, that comes after 3 seconds? After a scramble? Or totally due to a play called on 3rd & long, when the defenders blitz...and the play is snuffed out b4 it ever really begins? How does PFF judge/rate/grade these plays? All pressure isn't bad pressure, unless the QB fails to make the opponent pay...How else will the pressure stop?

Until we can get 8-9 men out of the box...effectively...with downfield throws...the run game will suffer, and hence this narrative that the line is "weak" will continue....

And this new Gurley isn't entirely not without blame....neither are the audibles that never come...yet runs continue up the middle...on first down...

but blaming the line always plays well...

I played a lil line...a long time ago...and we were ALWAYS the reason...the running game wasn't working....when we got a better QB in there...all of a sudden...we're doing our jobs... go figure

 

[99Balloons]

My reshuffle OL is this: Saffold, Robinson, Barnes, Brown, Havenstein.

Based on the running plays against the Bills with Todd Gurley running right, Jamon Brown looked dominant as he pushed his man in front of him.

When Wichmann was playing RG, there was no hole and Gurley ended up running straight into his blocker (Wichmann).

 

[…..]

I think its best NOT to shuffle anything.

You'll be shuffling for years. Your line will never be what you expect it to be unless you leave it the hell alone and let it grow into the best that it can be.

If one piece doesn't work out, you put another into its place. But for Gods sake, leave it alone if you don't have to do anything. You have zero precedent for moving Roger Saffold to RG and you have already had plenty of opportunity for Rhaney to outplay Barnes. It didn't happened during competition time, so what has changed?

If you wanna tinker with stuff, buy an old hot rod.

 

[SteveBrown]

I think we can win games, and shuffling the O line won't help the continuity. We won 3 games with these guys.

Replacing GRob for a few series a game and leaving the other 4 guys in place seems ok to me. Once we move Saffold then we have guys who won't have the right timing with the guy next to him...even the timing with the TE is important....

Like Brian Quick, I think Greg R has some learning to do...to say it nicely.

There was a LT with the Chargers in 2006, who came from Auburn too, and he was awesome as a rookie----the whole "Auburn" thing is a big excuse for GRob's ineffectiveness; I don't appreciate lies.. Forgot the LT's name, but as a rookie he was great and he had 5-6 good years, and then he had back issues and was gone. (or something like that).

Quick picked it up in his 2nd year a bit....and now looks ok. WHen will GRob?

 

[LumberTubs]

This o line has given Keenum plenty of opportunity to pass. Even for all his faults, Keenum is putting a Rams receiver on course for over 1000 yards in a season for the first time in something like 8 or 9 years.

The run game is an issue that won't really be solved until opposing D's are forced to account for the pass. The solution to that is a topic for another thread (there are plenty out there already) but it's not the o line's fault.

Edit: Just re-read the above paragraph and what I meant to say is that it's not the o line's fault that opposing D's can stack the box. Clearly the o line is contributing to the poor run game by not blocking well enough but there's a limit to what they can achieve when outnumbered.

 

[jrry32]

No. The OL does what it does this year. We reshuffle it after the season. Greg sticks at LT until the end of this year. If he doesn't improve, he moves to OG.

The OL has been pretty solid in pass pro.(despite PFF's contentions)

But starting a rookie UDFA at LT? What has Murphy shown to give people that sort of faith in him? I ask that seriously. I didn't pay any attention to him in the preseason.

 

[jrry32]

There was a LT with the Chargers in 2006, who came from Auburn too, and he was awesome as a rookie----the whole "Auburn" thing is a big excuse for GRob's ineffectiveness; I don't appreciate lies.. Forgot the LT's name, but as a rookie he was great and he had 5-6 good years, and then he had back issues and was gone. (or something like that).

Quick picked it up in his 2nd year a bit....and now looks ok. WHen will GRob?

Marcus McNeill

However, you're making an apples to oranges comparison. People aren't using the "Auburn excuse" because there's something inherently wrong with Auburn. It's Gus Malzahn's scheme that's the problem. Marcus McNeill played for Tommy Tuberville, not Gus Malzahn.

 

[shaunpinney]

As we ended last season, our OL was playing decent. GRob was on a definite upswing, showing solid improvement. Barnes was playing better, Havenstein was giving us hope for the future, and Brown and Wichman both looked good for rookies. Now it doesn't seem like any of these guys are looking particularly good, and if they've ALL regressed at the same time, it's too much to write off as a mere coincidence.

Agree, I mentioned it on another post somewhere, there was hope at the end of last year with these guys, EVERYBODY thought GRob was getting there, Havenstein was the highest rated (I think) RT and our Guards were solid, with C being our weakest link - but now this year it's all gone pear shaped, not sure if our scheme has changed, or opposing D-lines have improved more (I doubt it). Something's gone wrong somewhere, and it's up to the coaching.

I think he should stay at LT and I remember LeCharles Bentley saying that he shouldn't be moved inside to guard and both he and Brandon Thorn have been quoted saying that the "potential is scary with him."

Let's not throw the baby out with the bathwater, and look at why the o-line has regressed, do we need to bring in extra coaching on the o-line, fresh eyes, I don't know, maybe - but I really don't think shuffling the line is going to solve the problems.

 

[12intheBox]

PFF released Sam Diego's D Line top grades like 10 minutes after the game ended last night. How is that possible? How comprehensive can this really be if the evaluations are done that quickly?