Is anyone NOT good with either QB?

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jrry32

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Wentz reminds me of Big Ben, Manning or Luck and Goff reminds me of Bradford.
That concerns me if they take Goff.

I can't tell you how to feel but Goff isn't Bradford. If you were to compare him to Matt Ryan or Eli Manning, fine. I can understand those comparisons. But Bradford he's not. Surprisingly, Bradford actually was much closer in size to Wentz at the Combine. Not that Wentz is Bradford either. My point is that neither are Bradford. They might fail. Such is the nature of the draft. But I don't expect it. However, what Goff can do in the pocket is far beyond what Bradford can do even now...much less what Bradford could do coming out of college. Goff's instincts, movement, and poise in the pocket are special.

I've decided to appoint myself as the judge, jury and presenter of the weekly "Old Larry Award" to the poster that most illogically criticizes the QB the Rams "mistakenly draft", instead of "their guy"

You're all welcome!

I wonder who Old Larry roots for now. Probably the Eagles. Guy has to have someone to shake his fist at in contempt while he watches the games.
 

OldSchool

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which brings me to my least favourite thing about wentz, he takes too many hits out of the pocket. if he does that in the nfl he won't be standing upright for too long. too many big, strong, mean men in the nfl for a qb to survive taking vicious hits.

I agree and I'm not saying he won't be able to scramble or run in the NFL but if he runs that way he's going to be hurt a lot getting hit by NFL LB and SS.
 

Mackeyser

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Flat earth? Watch a game and you're lying to say I'm wrong. I love Wentz as much as the next guy but the offense he ran is a QB option run offense. That's why he tucked the ball over 25% of his plays. Cam Newton doesn't even run close to that much.
It's not a "pro style" offense

Yeah, flat earth. It's not a matter for debate. It's definitional. Every person with coaching experience who's dissected it, instantly recognizes it as a WCO.

It just happens to be a power running variant with some read option plays.

you can do that. Just like you can incorporate spread concepts into the Earhardt Perkins offense like Belicheck did a few years ago. Doesn't mean that Belicheck converted his New England offense TO the spread. Just means they incorporated other concepts into the base offense.

That's why there are VARIANTS. That's how in the Coryell offense you can have the two extremes, the Washington 'Hogs variant which was a power running, play action variant and the Air Coryell variant run in San Diego which was executed by Dan Fouts and put Dan Fouts and Kellen Winslow in the HoF.

As @jrry32 can attest, there are SUBSTANTIAL differences between spreads like what Cam Newton ran at Auburn and the WCO variant (or system as @jrry32 puts it... we use slightly different terminology for the same thing) that NDSU runs.

As it turns out, teams in the NFL tend to not run "pure" offenses, too. Even as we look at prime examples... NO for a WCO, NE for Earhardt Perkins, Minny for Coryell (Norv Turner...), they incorporate other aspects from other offenses including spread, read option and others.

Effectively, they create language "dialects", sorta like the difference between talking to a New Yorker with a thick Brooklyn accent and all his local idioms and someone from Mississippi with his thick Southern drawl and all his local idioms. Sure, they still both speak American English, but they are also quite different in their modalities of expression even within the same language.

That's how you can have the 49ers WCO which just threw slant passes, screens, check downs and post patterns until it made you sick while you can STILL have an NDSU WCO that runs more than it passes with heavy OL and incorporates read option elements.

As for the "pro style" that's a misnomer. It's an offense used in the pros. Pro style just means as opposed to the triple option, or any spread variant. And because it was a pro offense, all of the NDSU QBs had to manage the huddle, call the play that was sent in, deal with pre-snap reads, call the mike, etc.. all elements of a QB in a pro offense.

So, yeah. Saying NDSU ran a QB run option offense is just factually wrong. It's okay if you don't know, but you can't just look at the video, see him run, say, "look, he runs alot. He must be in a QB option run offense."

If that was the case, by that logic, I could look at a brown sunset and say, "hey, look at that brown sunset. We must have an ammonia based atmosphere 'cuz we have brown clouds." Well, yeah, we do, but that's light refraction through our normal nitrogen/oxygen atmosphere with maybe a little pollution. They do look brown to us and there's traces of ammonia in the air, but it's not an ammonia based atmosphere.

Same difference.
 

Merlin

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Seeing a lot of argument over who is more pro ready, which is a waste of time tbh. We won't know that until they get into a locker room and compete. And even then who starts first comes down to the staff, level of competition, and even other factors like owners wanting to get a look at their investment. So that isn't going to be answered for a year or two.

Whoever the Rams draft will likely start first due to level of competition. Keenum is a backup, probably one of the better backups in the league I think, but a backup nonetheless. Mannion has a chance to be more than that, but unlike Goff he struggled greatly and will continue to do so in the face of pressure most likely. So IMO as soon as the kid knows the offense it's on. And tbh that should really be in the first year for both these guys. Both have good knowledge of protections, which is really that basic requirement that has to be met to avoid a rookie being battered.

Level of competition on the roster plus playing in SoCal plus the new stadium and elite franchise future of the LA Rams with a very good roster overall is what makes the Rams so attractive to any QB coming in. So IMO whoever they pick is very much set up for success. And I know some folks are gonna wring their hands over the talent at wideout, but great QBs raise the play of those around them. So add a WR & TE or whatever in round 4 with good hands, maybe a FA like Boldin, and this team is going to be ready to rock and roll.
 

dieterbrock

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Yeah, flat earth. It's not a matter for debate. It's definitional. Every person with coaching experience who's dissected it, instantly recognizes it as a WCO.

It just happens to be a power running variant with some read option plays.
That's just silly talk. It's all these things but its a "pro style offense"? Cmon man you're talking in circles
WCO is designed to utilize short passing to replace running
The QB has run/read option on almost 27% of his drop backs, that is not a pro offense.
Are their some characteristics of the offense that are WCO based? Maybe, but "anyone" who watches a game will immediately recognize that the offense is a power running set
Spare me the "flat earth" comments as it is truly ignorant.
Furthermore, "anyone" that watches a game where a team runs the ball 70% of the time, yes 70%, and "instantly" says "That's a West Coast Offense" is not familiar with football in general
 

HE WITH HORNS

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Dude, it's time to realize Bradford just isn't that great except for stealing a shitload of money from the NFL. lol

He's not a great QB, but he keeps getting better, in spite of changing offenses every year, and playing with subpar receivers. If not for the knee injury, he would have done well for us.
 

Mackeyser

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That's just silly talk. It's all these things but its a "pro style offense"? Cmon man you're talking in circles
WCO is designed to utilize short passing to replace running
The QB has run/read option on almost 27% of his drop backs, that is not a pro offense.
Are their some characteristics of the offense that are WCO based? Maybe, but "anyone" who watches a game will immediately recognize that the offense is a power running set
Spare me the "flat earth" comments as it is truly ignorant.
Furthermore, "anyone" that watches a game where a team runs the ball 70% of the time, yes 70%, and "instantly" says "That's a West Coast Offense" is not familiar with football in general

Well, you're just factually wrong, but I can't explain it any more reasonably than I have.

You don't understand and it doesn't make sense to you, fine. But you're trying to say a penguin isn't a bird because it doesn't fly. Same difference.
 

dieterbrock

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Well, you're just factually wrong, but I can't explain it any more reasonably than I have.

You don't understand and it doesn't make sense to you, fine. But you're trying to say a penguin isn't a bird because it doesn't fly. Same difference.
I'm factually correct, hence stating facts
There is no "Pro style offense" that is predicated on 70% running plays and the QB runs 25% of the time.
Watching ND State games (which you clearly haven't done) is like watching a 1970's to 80's dominant college program. Oline superior to the opposition
But again, I am dealing in fact, you nothing more than misdirected opinion.
In any event, the horse has been beaten enough and as Mark Twain once said, “Never argue with a fool, onlookers may not be able to tell the difference.”
 

FloridaBison

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IMO, Both the Rams and NDSU run a Variant of the WCO. A different Variant, but still WCO.

Not one NFL Team interested in Wentz or one Scout has stated differently.
 

12intheBox

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Facts and Opinions.

An opinion that happens to be correct is still not a fact.

Jerry Rice is a better WR than Mardy Gillyard is an opinion and not a fact. It's a correct opinion - but an opinion nonetheless.

Jerry Rice has more receptions than Mardy is a fact.

One is quantifiable and the other is not.
 

Mackeyser

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I'm factually correct, hence stating facts
There is no "Pro style offense" that is predicated on 70% running plays and the QB runs 25% of the time.
Watching ND State games (which you clearly haven't done) is like watching a 1970's to 80's dominant college program. Oline superior to the opposition
But again, I am dealing in fact, you nothing more than misdirected opinion.
In any event, the horse has been beaten enough and as Mark Twain once said, “Never argue with a fool, onlookers may not be able to tell the difference.”

See, now you're getting personal and that's not called for. You're half a step from calling me a liar. I clearly didn't watch games? I'm pretty sure you need to take a powder and rethink things.

I'm just telling you what IS. As others in the thread have said as well.

You are NOT dealing in fact. You are just looking at the run/pass ratio and making a summary judgment. I pointed out that was wrong...in the same way that it's the SAME Coryell offense that yielded the run heavy Washington Hogs with John Riggins being a bellcow back as the Air Coryell offense that set passing records with Dan Fouts and Kellen Winslow and those two variants visually looked NOTHING like one another.

Literally everything, from opponents who scouted them, to scouts looking at Wentz to teams who've dissected their playbook because they've won 5 straight National Championships...ALL say the same thing: it's a WCO. Schematically, it's a WCO. Jon Gruden recognized it instantly AS a WCO. There are certain concepts within each offense that guys who are really proponents of it look for. Heiden is a WCO guy and he recognized the offense for what it was. But YOU know different because the run/pass ratio isn't what you were used to seeing with the 9ers with Montana and Rice, maybe?

I'm not sure if you are incredulous because you think offenses have to be a certain way? I dunno.

But, Google is your friend and if you won't believe me or the people of ROD, the truth is out there...
 

Memphis Ram

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IMO, if the Rams plan to keep Goff in the shotgun and run some variation of the Patriots offense, then I'd be less concerned about the selection.

Otherwise, I believe that they would be making a huge mistake and should select Wentz to run their current scheme.

That said, I question if either of these kids are worthy of the #1 selection in the NFL Draft. And especially the draft choice compensation provided to obtain the selection. But, desperate times call for desperate measures, I guess.