If Rams cut Michael Sam, his NFL options would be few (one?)

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Thordaddy

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Rich
He said "total certainty", can you see anyone delivering it anywhere from video alone without knowing the units call ,like Bellycheat says film lies almost like he does.
 

CoachO

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Its called hyperbole,,, I was trying to exaggerate to make a point (obviously not very well).. The could be doing the same job in Manhattan, KS and it wouldn't change my opinion. They are manufactured "stats" based on subjective "analysis".
 

LACHAMP46

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Ok...I'm fan of football, I enjoy the Rams and several members of my family are Rams fans although I am a Silver and Black Fan....Raiders baby. Through thick and thin. I'm intrigued by the situation the Rams are in with Michael Sam and Ethan Westbrooks. I've been kind of shocked yet pleased with the acceptance of Michael Sam, I think it is what it is...this is 2014. Let's just play ball and enjoy the game of football. BUT......in watching this past preason game I saw Michael Sam get unlimited publicity and all the media attention (which is fine). Ethan Westbrooks has gotten minimal coverage in comparison but he has gotten some (to be fair in my comment). Sam had ONE solo tackle and in my opinion if the other guys weren't there to finish off the tackle, that would have been questionable. He lost grasp of the running back (look at it again...it's all over the internet). He rushed the quarterback and showed some quickness no doubt, that was great. Westbrooks had THREE solo tackles and a QB hit in the final stats. All of his tackles were HIS and were no doubt tackles and he smacked the heck out of the QB although he got the ball off just prior to the hit. Now I'm just saying....especially with only three practices under his belt, YES.....he outplayed Michael Sam in that first preseason game. Sam had 33 snaps on defense, Westbrooks had 35. I'm just hoping that Westbrooks gets a fair shot at beating Sam out.......without all of the politics getting in the way because it looks absolutely possible that could happen. I'm gonna sit back and enjoy the competition between the two.

On another note...how many players does a team get to keep on the practice squad? That's one thing I'm not well versed on...but now after asking, I'm going to look it up! Thanks for reading and GOOD luck Ram Fans! In memory of my BIG Cuz Michael Bivins.....Ram Fan.....RIP
Welcome, and good luck to the Raiders....Pretty sure Sam & Westbrook will be decided on who can help the team the most....I never thought that Westbrooks only had 3 practices? I'll just sit back and enjoy this battle....Best man wins.
Wow, almost had forgotten about BBD....Great memories with their music......
 

LACHAMP46

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@CoachO , @DaveFan'51 , others...

The OP author misused the PFF stats horribly, same mistakes made by most fans.

~~

First the full ratings as it relates to the author's comments -

Westbrooks was +4.2 in 34 snaps including +2.4 in pass rush D +1.7 in run D. Credited with 2 QB hits, 3 tackles and 2 stuffs.

Sam by comparison was +0.2 in 33 snaps including -0.7 in pass rush but +0.8 in run D. Credit with 1 hit and 1 hurry to go with 1 tackle.

PFF didn't just give Westbrooks the score because of the three tackles vs the 1 tackle. It's because Westbrooks consistently beat his guy where Sam was mostly neutralized.

If you haven't read PFF's "how we grade", it is informative and explains what they do better than I can.
http://www.profootballfocus.com/about/grading/

If you're not familiar with PFF ratings, 4.2 in 33 snaps is an eye opening score. Not only was it the 2nd best DE, but it was one of the best scores of any preseason player at any position (yes, I looked). It was the best Ram grade by far. 2nd best D was Gaines at +2.1, best offensive grade was Barksdale at +1.2.

On a per snap basis, it is better than JJ Watt in 2013 (+99.8 on 998 snaps) or Robert Quinn (+74.6 on 849 snaps), where their scores were curve busters in and of themselves. Greg Hardy, the 2nd ranked DE in 2013 got +25.6 on 891 snaps and Calais Campbell, the 2nd 3-4 DE had +34.1 on 990 snaps).

What this should tell you is that if you didn't see Westbrooks flash, you weren't paying attention. He played RDE, LDE, both DT (A and B gaps). He had outside speed from RDE, inside spin move. He was double teamed (really? in preseason?). He hustled downfield. His 2 QB hits came from DT, shooting his gaps in a very Donald-like way - one was on the Brandon Cooks TD, the other was at 10:10 in the 4th on that 3rd down play where the RB stepped out of bounds too early, where in both cases the QB just got rid of the ball a touch before Westbrooks got there.

Make no mistake about it, Westbrooks had a very nice performance and no doubt caught people's attention.

~~~

The FLAWS in this argument are painfully obvious, starting with this: it is a preseason game. The classic problem with PFF is that it does not consider strength of schedule. Where Sam was in during the 1st Q presumably against Saints 1sts, Westbrooks was there all the way through the 4th playing against other UDFAs.

2nd. It's the FIRST preseason game. This is the first real live action any of these players have seen. There's a difference between OTA and training camp rust vs real game action rust.

3rd, it is one game and really only half a game for each player. You can't extrapolate a season any more with PFF scores based on a small sample set any more than you could a skill player. Alex Bayer is not going to lead the Rams in receiving this year with 1136 yards. The assumption with PFF (and a pretty good assumption) is that these things even out over the course of a season, same reason why they don't hand out the Lombardi trophy in September. Over the course of a full season, the PFF numbers gain statistical relevance to the point where their quantified measures are usually spot on with what people intuitively "know", and they do it for positions where we frankly have little first hand basis for comparing players (e.g. OG).

But ok, so we have a pre-season data points to look at with Westbrooks and Sam. I'm not cutting Sam yet.

~~~

I do, however, have my eye on Carrington, however, who I thought was especially unimpressive when watching the game and I watched for him specifically trying to figure out why our DL was not holding up against the run. PFF backs up what I saw... -1.8 rating including -1.3 in run D in only 21 snaps, completely shut out other than a missed tackle. It didn't take long for me to conclude that we really need Brockers and Langford in there, as has pretty much every Rams fan on this forum. As a comparison point, Donald had a +0.4 rating including +0.1 in run D. If Donald was paired with Brockers (e.g. a DT who did his job), I believe Donald's numbers would have been much more impressive, as would the Rams D in general.

The reason I'm singling out Carrington is that I have an idea in my head that Carrington doesn't have any lock whatsoever on that #8 spot. Watching this Saints game only reinforced that idea in me.

~~~

Other noteworthy Rams getting bad grades:
Ray Ray -4.5 on 40 snaps
Cody Davis -3.0 on 39 snaps
Eugene Sims -2.8 on 31 snaps (this one surprised me, I didn't think his play was that bad)
Dunbar -1.9
Carrington -1.8
TJ McD -1.3 on 13 snaps

The one player who stood out in a positive way was EJ Gaines who played on the starting unit and was still +2.1 despite the Rams D overall getting gashed.

Also impressive score was given to Marcus Roberson (who caught Holt's eye) with a +1.3 on 43 snaps, 3rd best Rams defender, but like Westbrooks, this was mostly later action.
I'm curious as to Conrath's score?
 

CoachO

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I completely understand that,, but are those former coaches and players the ones doing the "grading"? LOL
 

bluecoconuts

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Eh, Brits tend to crap on Americans for trying to understand soccer, Canadians over hockey (even though Lord Stanley has been in the states long enough he's ours now), I think it's just part of the national sport thing.
 

junkman

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I'm curious as to Conrath's score?

-2.4 in 37 snaps including -1.5 on run d, 5th worst on the team. When Faulk and Holt were talking about people not getting off their blocks, Conrath was clearly one of the accused. That score should surprise no one. I fear his chances of making the team are slim where the writing was on the wall when they signed Carrington, that he's just "a guy" at the end of the day.

That's a good thing for the Rams, however. They have so much DL depth, genuinely 7 deep, that they could cut Carrington and Conrath, and take flyers on both Sam and Westbrooks.
 

LACHAMP46

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-2.4 in 37 snaps including -1.5 on run d, 5th worst on the team. When Faulk and Holt were talking about people not getting off their blocks, Conrath was clearly one of the accused. That score should surprise no one. I fear his chances of making the team are slim where the writing was on the wall when they signed Carrington, that he's just "a guy" at the end of the day.

That's a good thing for the Rams, however. They have so much DL depth, genuinely 7 deep, that they could cut Carrington and Conrath, and take flyers on both Sam and Westbrooks.
Everytime I wanna doubt PFF, it comes out with stuff I have to agree with. The points/topics/concerns raised about the grading are true. You must also use your own, buffer..Kinda put it in perspective...Like...for example Cooks, everybody says he had a good game but we all saw him get the majority of his catches & yards vs 3rd team defenders..still a good game, but it needs perspective. Same with Chase Daniels...our RB, one run 38 yards...the rest, meh.... Conrath stunk up the joint, so did Carrington....I wanna see Westbrooks play vs some starters....I would have loved to see him more vs Armstead. Thanks
 

blue4

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-2.4 in 37 snaps including -1.5 on run d, 5th worst on the team. When Faulk and Holt were talking about people not getting off their blocks, Conrath was clearly one of the accused. That score should surprise no one. I fear his chances of making the team are slim where the writing was on the wall when they signed Carrington, that he's just "a guy" at the end of the day.

That's a good thing for the Rams, however. They have so much DL depth, genuinely 7 deep, that they could cut Carrington and Conrath, and take flyers on both Sam and Westbrooks.

I wouldn't cut Carrington just to save Sam. I might cut Conrath to save Westbrooks though. Of course, that's at this early stage of the preseason. It's just strange that a bubble player like Conrath is reportedly playing with the 1st team STs. Why do that if he's in full danger of being cut?

And is that his only redeeming quality?
 

Dodgersrf

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-2.4 in 37 snaps including -1.5 on run d, 5th worst on the team. When Faulk and Holt were talking about people not getting off their blocks, Conrath was clearly one of the accused. That score should surprise no one. I fear his chances of making the team are slim where the writing was on the wall when they signed Carrington, that he's just "a guy" at the end of the day.

That's a good thing for the Rams, however. They have so much DL depth, genuinely 7 deep, that they could cut Carrington and Conrath, and take flyers on both Sam and Westbrooks.
Carrington stays. His job is to stop the run.
 

CoachO

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I wouldn't cut Carrington just to save Sam. I might cut Conrath to save Westbrooks though. Of course, that's at this early stage of the preseason. It's just strange that a bubble player like Conrath is reportedly playing with the 1st team STs. Why do that if he's in full danger of being cut?

And is that his only redeeming quality?

This coaching staff has liked Conrath since singing him as an UDFA 2 years ago. They like his size (height and reach) especially against the short drop quick passing games that teams will employ. He came into camp this year noticeably bigger and thicker. He has consistently gotten 1st and 2nd unit reps throughout training camp, and to judge him off of one preseason game might be a rush to judgement. Especially if it mean trying to build up this year's rising "star"of an UDFA.

Does all that mean Conrath makes the 53 man roster? Of course not. But based on what I see happening on a daily basis, I wouldn't rule it out.
 

junkman

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Carrington stays. His job is to stop the run.

& @blue4 & @CoachO (who is not a fan of PFF, as an example of how I use PFF)

My belief was that Carrington was here to get more pass rush from the depth DTs than Conrath or Cudjo were providing. 6'5 300, coming off of injury, he was picked up pre-Donald on a 1 year prove-it deal with $1M guaranteed. (similar to Britt, but Carrington has twice the guaranteed money, Britt has more incentives)

Maybe Carrington hasn't full recovered since the injury 3rd game last year? He was playing end last year rather than DT where he excelled in 2012.
http://www.buffalobills.com/news/ar...e-season/0ef2e68f-8575-4ccf-8d46-235a0349b7a6

His best year according to PFF was 2012 playing from DT position, with 2 sacks, 1 hit, 15 hurries on only 352 snaps (about 1/3 of snaps). Where PFF gave him a +5.8 overall which is very good for someone with so few snaps, his very good pass rush +8.0 score was dragged down by his -4.3 run defense score.

Regardless, we're not cutting him yet. But I didn't see much from either of the DTs (Conrath or Carrington) who looked to be glued onto the people blocking them.
 

CoachO

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& @blue4 & @CoachO (who is not a fan of PFF, as an example of how I use PFF)

My belief was that Carrington was here to get more pass rush from the depth DTs than Conrath or Cudjo were providing. 6'5 300, coming off of injury, he was picked up pre-Donald on a 1 year prove-it deal with $1M guaranteed. (similar to Britt, but Carrington has twice the guaranteed money, Britt has more incentives)

Maybe Carrington hasn't full recovered since the injury 3rd game last year? He was playing end last year rather than DT where he excelled in 2012.
http://www.buffalobills.com/news/ar...e-season/0ef2e68f-8575-4ccf-8d46-235a0349b7a6

His best year according to PFF was 2012 playing from DT position, with 2 sacks, 1 hit, 15 hurries on only 352 snaps (about 1/3 of snaps). Where PFF gave him a +5.8 overall which is very good for someone with so few snaps, his very good pass rush +8.0 score was dragged down by his -4.3 run defense score.

Regardless, we're not cutting him yet. But I didn't see much from either of the DTs (Conrath or Carrington) who looked to be glued onto the people blocking them.

and my reaction would be to say, none of this makes any difference. His grades were in a different system. And they don't project how he will do on this team in this system. If you are trying to notice a trend, as to his overall health based off of performance grades, again, there are just to many variables not taken into consideration for me to be satisfied.

Last time, for me,,, I get you like to use it for your own benefit, but why are you trying so hard to get me to see things your way, and what appears to justify it to me? I will not somehow convert, and start using this as some tool for me to enjoy the game. Thanks but no thanks.
 

Dodgersrf

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& @blue4 & @CoachO (who is not a fan of PFF, as an example of how I use PFF)

My belief was that Carrington was here to get more pass rush from the depth DTs than Conrath or Cudjo were providing. 6'5 300, coming off of injury, he was picked up pre-Donald on a 1 year prove-it deal with $1M guaranteed. (similar to Britt, but Carrington has twice the guaranteed money, Britt has more incentives)

Maybe Carrington hasn't full recovered since the injury 3rd game last year? He was playing end last year rather than DT where he excelled in 2012.
http://www.buffalobills.com/news/ar...e-season/0ef2e68f-8575-4ccf-8d46-235a0349b7a6

His best year according to PFF was 2012 playing from DT position, with 2 sacks, 1 hit, 15 hurries on only 352 snaps (about 1/3 of snaps). Where PFF gave him a +5.8 overall which is very good for someone with so few snaps, his very good pass rush +8.0 score was dragged down by his -4.3 run defense score.

Regardless, we're not cutting him yet. But I didn't see much from either of the DTs (Conrath or Carrington) who looked to be glued onto the people blocking them.
Your probably correct.
(That's what I get for reading pro sports writers):LOL:
 

AutumnWind

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That's not really true off this first game.
Westbrooks will need to look significantly better because he is further down on the depth chart than Sam is. Sam is running with the 2s and the 3s, meaning when his stats aren't as good, he's still playing against better guys. So Westbrooks needs to not only outplay him on the stat sheet, but do so significantly to the point they move him up. Right now Sam is clearly ahead in the coaches eyes, and I think it will be his spot to lose, with him doing nothing to show he should lose it thus far. Both players will need a season or so to develop, so that means little to me. What I think they will want to know is, can they play in this league (looks like it), which one cam contribute more overall (sub in for different plays, ST, etc), which will hurt the team less (giving up plays, flags, etc), and things like that. Which is mostly why I see the job as Sam's to lose at this point. The staff is giving him more opportunities to suceed thus far.
 

AutumnWind

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[Qlot of the time they were in at the same time. Westbrooks played for different positions starting in the second quarter till the end. Their snaps taken number was almost identical.UOTE="AutumnWind, post: 366784, member: 1671"]That's not really true off this first game.[/QUOTE]
A
 

AutumnWind

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Holy quantifications Batman.....that's some brainiac stuff right there! Sounded very impressive too. LOL

I am an Engineer (not a statistician) by trade and I use mathematical models for analysis and design. Statistical/mathematical models should be evaluated/calibrated to see how they fit with empirical data (real world conditions) and a good one should yield results that are realistic.

For the Rams there are some very basic empirical results we can use for comparison:
The 2013 Rams finished 7-9 in the toughest division in football with the one of the toughest strength of schedules. PFF ranks the Rams roster # 31 based most likely on last year’s grades. Great calibration (NOT)

The Rams 2013 defense was ranked 15 overall (8th in rushing and 19th in passing based on yards allowed) and it obviously played better down the stretch. PFF ranks the Rams defense 22nd. How does an 8th ranked run defense have an interior D-line and linebacker group ranked so low? This just does not calibrate.

Note: Even most non-ram fans and those in the drive by media at least are starting to show some respect for the Rams and especially their defense but not PFF.
So what are we to believe, a flawed evaluation/scoring system that yields ratings, which do not coincide with actual rankings/records or do we let the Rams record speak for itself.

IMO, PFF is utterly useless and a load of crap. Every time I see it quoted/used, I just roll my eyes because they have no credibility with me.

PFF - Pro Football Fallacies – Pontificating Fiction as Facts – Pooping Fictitious Facts……. Hey Join in the fun…