If anyone ever doubted how useless QBR is !?!

[Ram65]

He had 4-5 years of doing what all the running QB's did Meaning have some great games and some average games and some bad games. And the hits and injuries caught up and it was over. Until he became a pocket passer late in his career and had one excellent year. Had he done that from the start of his career he would probably be in the HOF.

They say here in Phila that Cunningham had little to no offensive support from Buddy Ryan. Ryan just wanted RC to run and use his athletic ability. No real offensive game plan. That's where Jeff Fisher got is offensive mind from. Had RC had an offensive coach he might have developed faster as a pocket passer sooner.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Randall_Cunningham#Philadelphia_Eagles

In 1986, new head coach Buddy Ryan arrived in Philadelphia and made wholesale changes, many of them unorthodox, mostly due to his defensive-minded philosophy. At the quarterback position, Ryan designated 35-year-old Ron Jaworski the starter but would replace the aging veteran with the fleet-footed Cunningham in third-and-long situations where the youngster’s scrambling would presumably put the defense on its heels. After a hand injury to Jaworski in week 10, Cunningham would replace him as the Eagles’ starter. Despite his limited service and speed, the Eagles' porous offensive line allowed him to be sacked a franchise record 72 times that season. Cunningham was permanently handed the Eagles' starting job for the 1987 season.

 

[LesBaker]

ahhh, guess ya never heard of Bert Jones.....
train

I served with Bert Jones.

I knew Bert Jones.

Bert Jones was a friend of mine.



LOL let's see how many people can identify where I lifted that......

 

[1maGoh]

Do you mean "case in point'?

No. You made my point. Case closed. Point and case. Kind of like point, set, match.

Also do you mean I have super knowledge or I'm super old LOL.

Take your pick.

 

[LesBaker]

They say here in Phila that Cunningham had little to no offensive support from Buddy Ryan. Ryan just wanted RC to run and use his athletic ability. No real offensive game plan. That's where Jeff Fisher got is offensive mind from. Had RC had an offensive coach he might have developed faster as a pocket passer sooner.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Randall_Cunningham#Philadelphia_Eagles

In 1986, new head coach Buddy Ryan arrived in Philadelphia and made wholesale changes, many of them unorthodox, mostly due to his defensive-minded philosophy. At the quarterback position, Ryan designated 35-year-old Ron Jaworski the starter but would replace the aging veteran with the fleet-footed Cunningham in third-and-long situations where the youngster’s scrambling would presumably put the defense on its heels. After a hand injury to Jaworski in week 10, Cunningham would replace him as the Eagles’ starter. Despite his limited service and speed, the Eagles' porous offensive line allowed him to be sacked a franchise record 72 times that season. Cunningham was permanently handed the Eagles' starting job for the 1987 season.

I won't dispute that, I know he had a good RB and WR......Byers and the other is escaping me. Maybe I'm not as smart as @1maGoh thinks I am. Cunningham had so much talent, he could have been so much more of a player.

If you are in Philly you may know Stella's for pizza.

That shit is delicious, probably the best I have ever had.

If you haven't been there make sure you Goh. hehehe

 

[LesBaker]

point, set, match.

I thought it was game set match. Has all this shit changed since the 1930's?

Take your pick.

OK how long do I have until I have to decide? I would like to give this meaningful thought.

 

[1maGoh]

I thought it was game set match. Has all this crap changed since the 1930's?



OK how long do I have until I have to decide? I would like to give this meaningful thought.

Dang it! That was what I meant. Stupid millennial brain.

 

[LesBaker]

Dang it! That was what I meant. Stupid millennial brain.

It's not your fault, it's everything and everybody else's fault.

 

[kurtfaulk]

if i remember correctly Kurt Warner always got great QBR ratings, right?

And he was the worst running, least mobile QB in the game,ever
train

With the cardinals?

.

 

[LACHAMP46]

Was Goff great against Dallas? No, but I thought he was GOOD for sure.

If I'm remembering correctly, a score of 50 is average....They take into account the opposing teams defense...and a bunch of other stuff....I'm guessing the incomplete passes brought his score down....the redzone failures...stuff like that...

So, 45. whatever, isn't as bad as it looks.

 

[LACHAMP46]

While I understand what you are saying......they are great athletes.......they aren't great QBs. They are passable QBs who are great highlight reels.

Is Alex Smith a passable QB? Or was last nights last drive made by a great QB? That scramble to get off a pass, that put them into field goal range was....crucial...Running QB's win...especially now...O-Lines are too average all over...running QB helps.

 

[Scirca]

If I'm remembering correctly, a score of 50 is average....They take into account the opposing teams defense...and a bunch of other stuff....I'm guessing the incomplete passes brought his score down....the redzone failures...stuff like that...

So, 45. whatever, isn't as bad as it looks.

The problem is that Dak Prescott got a better ranking than our #16. If you take away Zeke, Dak isn't anything special. Nothing to mention, how do you throw a 2 yarder on 4th and 10 with the game on the line. I don't think people are giving Prescott enough shit for that. Not to mention he had almost two picks 6, 3 other near INTS and an interception. Where is that factored in? He doesn't even belong in the same breath as #16.

 

[LACHAMP46]

When I talk of a running QB, I am talking about a guy that is his best when on the move and he is most comfortable in that state. They tend to resort to moving in the pocket or running the ball even when it isn't necessary. They make bad teams better because they can make some amazing plays but they'll make good teams worse because they aren't comfortable when just throwing from the pocket.

That's not necessarily true...running QB's that are accurate, can help any team.

Watch Mitch Trubisky this weekend...or highlights closely....Throwing on the move is a very successful scheme...Guy outta Denver...Shanahan used it with much success. With play action passing...the roll out pass is an excellent way to get the ball downfield...deeply.

It's not just about running. Seems very complicated. Rams/Goff Red Zone conversion was 25% compared to Cowpies/Prescott of 75%.

Cowboys had better third down conversion. They converted 50% 7/14 compared to 38.5 % 5/13 for the Rams.

I can see these factoring in to the QBR #s.

I like a QB that can extend a play like Dak did. Goff can extend plays but he more of a pocket passer.

Thanks for posting this.....I figured redzone conversions...scoring TD's...and 3rd down conversions figured into it....

ESPN is a disney company...they put top stat minds together to find an all-encompassing
QBR.....it may be a little...it's like the baseball OPS & WAR....but I believe if compared to other QB's you'll see the picture.

 

[LACHAMP46]

The knock every modern day running QB until they stop running so much and improve as pocket passers? Keep him in the pocket and his play goes to crap.

And it's true.

maybe....it's really HARD to just KEEP guys in the pocket for the entire game.....I thought Washington had a great defensive plan....and then Alex Smith escapes outside the pocket, late in the game, finds a receiver downfield for 38 yards....then they line up and kick the game winning field goal.

The key is...teach the guy that can run how to throw...sounds simple enough to me...look at the trends....look at the NFL...how many QB's are mobile?

Deshaun Watson, Patrick Mahomes, Mitch Trubisky were all drafted because they could throw.....and run...Kizer too....Wentz too...

 

[OldSchool]

There is no defense for QBR or PFF they're horrible rating systems.

 

[LACHAMP46]

The problem is that Dak Prescott got a better ranking than our #16. If you take away Zeke, Dak isn't anything special. Nothing to mention, how do you throw a 2 yarder on 4th and 10 with the game on the line. I don't think people are giving Prescott enough crap for that. Not to mention he had almost two picks 6, 3 other near INTS and an interception. Where is that factored in? He doesn't even belong in the same breath as #16.

Look closely @Ram65 post....3rd down conversions....red zone...there are a lot of factors....plus he made some plays that just....man, he was running for his life in that 4th quarter...
I wouldn't say Dak played better...but I think he had to perform vs a better defense.

 

[bomebadeeda]

Is Alex Smith a passable QB? Or was last nights last drive made by a great QB? That scramble to get off a pass, that put them into field goal range was....crucial...Running QB's win...especially now...O-Lines are too average all over...running QB helps.

You are citing running QBs (and I wouldn't refer to Alex Smith as a runner....) on winning teams. they don't win because they are runners. (Yes, I know....schematics....but true) Some run when other options aren't there. Some have run as an option in their game (Kapernick, RG3, Vick, Randall Cunningham, Bobby Douglass, etc.). It's such that teams put a spy on them and they do not go through progressions. And scrambling to have another option isn't running. Running is where you cross the line of scrimmage and don't have an option to throw. Tarkenton was the best at running around to find a open receiver in scramble drill.
I get it. You like the college game and believe those principals can and would work in the pros if applied regularly. But running QBs get beat up more than stationary ones. Smith would be the first to admit that. He lost his job w/ the Whiners being a runner. He'll probably lose his job next year no matter what he does this one.
I know, you'll disagree. And that's cool. We all have opinions. I just know QBs who go through all their progressions usually have a higher level of success than ones who bail out when that 2 second mark hits. (Thus depriving their teams of potential longer pass plays on patterns down the field....)

 

[LACHAMP46]

And scrambling to have another option isn't running.

You're really confusing....scrambling isn't running? You think that non mobile QB's can scramble? You think the play I referenced could be done by other QB's??? That was the essence of the running QB....

I get it. You like the college game and believe those principals can and would work in the pros if applied regularly.

Actually I liked the game better...without ALL the spread....I mean, shotgun formation is cool...but every play?? Doesn't seem sustainable....
But many college principles could be utilized in the pros...Houston is better than most teams...Seattle is better than most teams....Carolina is better than most teams....Trubisky is gonna make Chicago better. Marriota makes Tennessee better....Not sustainable long term...but the run pass option is a serious play...the read option is a serious play...but I wouldn't want my QB taking hits running the ball constantly...but a change up now and then couldn't hurt...

Smith would be the first to admit that. He lost his job w/ the Whiners being a runner. He'll probably lose his job next year no matter what he does this one.

He'll lose his job...to a mobile QB like himself....bigger arm...supposedly more of a downfield thrower....if...and big IF....IF he fails to continue throwing the ball downfield....

 

[bomebadeeda]

You're really confusing....scrambling isn't running? You think that non mobile QB's can scramble? You think the play I referenced could be done by other QB's??? That was the essence of the running QB....


Actually I liked the game better...without ALL the spread....I mean, shotgun formation is cool...but every play?? Doesn't seem sustainable....
But many college principles could be utilized in the pros...Houston is better than most teams...Seattle is better than most teams....Carolina is better than most teams....Trubisky is gonna make Chicago better. Marriota makes Tennessee better....Not sustainable long term...but the run pass option is a serious play...the read option is a serious play...but I wouldn't want my QB taking hits running the ball constantly...but a change up now and then couldn't hurt...

He'll lose his job...to a mobile QB like himself....bigger arm...supposedly more of a downfield thrower....if...and big IF....IF he fails to continue throwing the ball downfield....

Ok....I'll bite....
Scrambling for another option (passing the ball downfield) is called extending the play. And yes, many non running QBs do it. But I understand....you don't want to give me that one. So we'll leave that @ impasse.
And your answer, does use my point. You are a believer in talent making the determination of a play. I believe that coaching trumps talent. This is why I like the pro game better. Rogers, Smith, Stafford, Brady all try to extend the play within the design of the play (and sometimes a defensive design does open up the field for a run....but that is within the design of the play.) When you take off (running) it usually outside the design of the play and while there are times it works.......my 3 and 20 scenario from earlier comes in mind..... (a great 18 yd. run.....a highlight file run....and a 4th down!).

And the last bit......it's more about the lower cost of Mahomes as much as it is about his ability.
I will say It's always fun to exchange thoughts w/ you though. I do know where you stand when it comes to the Rams. And that is the bottom line. But it's been fun.

 

[RamsFlash80]

I just ignore QBR cause its worthless..

 

[wiley16350]

That's not necessarily true...running QB's that are accurate, can help any team.

Watch Mitch Trubisky this weekend...or highlights closely....Throwing on the move is a very successful scheme...Guy outta Denver...Shanahan used it with much success. With play action passing...the roll out pass is an excellent way to get the ball downfield...deeply.

I agree, qb's that are accurate, who have the ability to run are very tough to stop. I don't qualify pass first, accurate passers as running qb's just because they have great running skills. Running QB's are Mike Vick and Tyrod Taylor, maybe even Aaron Rodgers (the more I watch of him). They are guys that rely on their running skills to have success. If you take away their pocket movement and force them to throw, their success drops significantly. Those types of guys can make bad teams mediocre and good teams mediocre and don't have long term success. They are too reliant on the play calling and their running ability to be a truly elite QB. So I think the problem we have is that we don't have the same definition of who a running QB is. QB's that can run certainly add an advantage but only if they are good QB's too.