How far is too far for trade down by Rams?/Wagoner

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RamBill

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How far is too far for trade down by Rams?
By Nick Wagoner

http://espn.go.com/blog/nflnation/post/_/id/123456/how-far-is-too-far-for-a-trade-down-by-rams

One of the few draft-related topics the St. Louis Rams have been openly willing to discuss in the run-up to May's NFL draft has been their willingness to trade the No. 2 overall selection.

That pick is the final piece of the haul the team received from the Washington Redskins in 2012, and the Rams would undoubtedly like that deal to continue perpetuating itself as long as possible.

But the Rams also need to add some difference makers if they want to keep up in the arms race that is the NFC West. So while a trade down would allow them to add more good players with later picks, it also could prevent them from getting an elite talent if they move down too far.

Which begs the question, if the Rams do find a trade partner, how far can they move while still maintaining the chance at a top talent?

Of course, the quality and rankings of the talent is purely in the eye of the beholder so while one team may see five players separated from the group, another team might see seven, including some that aren't in the other team's top five.

In the 2014 draft, there does seem to be at least a little bit of a consensus forming on who the top players are, though there's room for differences of opinion behind South Carolina defensive end Jadeveon Clowney, who is widely regarded as the No. 1 overall player.

According to ESPN draft analyst Mel Kiper Jr., if the Rams want to walk out of the first night of the draft with an elite talent, they'll need to ensure that any move down still garners one of seven players. Those seven players are Clowney, Auburn offensive tackle Greg Robinson, Buffalo linebacker Khalil Mack, Clemson receiver Sammy Watkins, Texas A&M offensive tackle Jake Matthews, Texas A&M receiver Mike Evans and Michigan offensive tackle Taylor Lewan.

"That’s your super seven," Kiper said. "After that, I don’t see anybody that belongs in that group right now. I don’t think any of the quarterbacks do and I don’t see any other players jumped up that far. So that’s your sensational seven, if you want to say that. Then you’re getting into the range where the eighth guy could be the 18th guy on some boards. To me, the seven are the consensus seven."

Now, just because those are Kiper's seven players doesn't mean the Rams view it that way. There could be more, there could be less. But given their apparent willingness to move down, it's reasonable to conclude that they have a number of players they view as worthy of taking in the top 10 or so of the draft. They've showed at least some level of interest in all seven of the players Kiper mentions.

Beyond that, the Rams have made it clear they have no intention of taking a quarterback in the first round. Which is what makes how other teams view the top quarterbacks the overriding X factor in trying to assess how far the Rams could comfortably trade down to secure one of the top talents.

It'd be easy to say there are seven players you covet and follow with the logic that you can't move any lower than No. 7 to get one. But quarterbacks perpetually complicate projecting the draft. No other position gets over drafted more as teams desperately seek franchise signal-callers at the expense of someone who might be a more sure thing at a less important position.

Of teams picking in the top 10, Houston, Jacksonville, Cleveland, Oakland, Minnesota and possibly Tampa Bay could use help at quarterback. So it's possible the Rams could move down a little past that seventh spot.

Still, finding a trade partner, especially if Clowney is off the board, might prove difficult because of that lack of excitement about this year's quarterback prospects. And it's not out of line to say that just because the Rams could move down doesn't mean they should. If indeed there's a super seven, the Rams might be better off taking their pick of the litter than rolling the dice on the player at the bottom of that group.
 

Ramhusker

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I say 9 is the lowest because despite any expert down playing any QB in this crop, there will be a couple of signal callers come off the board early.
 

fearsomefour

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The players I see filling both high value as far as immediate impact and position of need are Matthews, Robinson, Watkins, CB of choice, Barr and Mack as far as being a high pick. Six would be about as low as I would want to go, 8 at the lowest.
 

Ramhusker

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The players I see filling both high value as far as immediate impact and position of need are Matthews, Robinson, Watkins, CB of choice, Barr and Mack as far as being a high pick. Six would be about as low as I would want to go, 8 at the lowest.
I like DBs Dennard, Gilbert, Pryor, Dix, and Verrett but I wouldn't want to take any of them before 13 and really don't fancy them there, maybe 15 thru 20. You don't think any QBs will be taken in the top 5?
 

NJRamsFan

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I honestly don't think we are trading down much to the dismay of many here but, if we were to trade down I think it would be a mistake to go below 6
 

BriansRams

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Depends on the offer, if the Seahawks offered 32 1st round picks I'd do it.

Realistically 6.
Hmmm. Very interesting. I'm thinking they could trade down as low at the #8 pick and still get one of the top 3 OL. But I would only trade for that team's #1 pick next year (and of course the trade would be to switch positions with their 1st round pick this year). I would not except a trade where we get anything less than their 2nd and 3rd round picks this year, or their 1st round pick next year.

And then I'd stay at #13 and get the DB or Safety that we want. Or if by crazy chance Mike Evans is still on the board ... him.
 

fearsomefour

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I like DBs Dennard, Gilbert, Pryor, Dix, and Verrett but I wouldn't want to take any of them before 13 and really don't fancy them there, maybe 15 thru 20. You don't think any QBs will be taken in the top 5?
I do probably 1,
maybe two at the max. I see all the teams in the 5 except Cleveland wanting to trade down.
Best case scenario to me is Houston taking Bortles 1. This allows the Rams to field offers for a trade up for Clowney.
This draft is strange at QB. No guys I like a ton. Cleveland is in a great spot. I would prefer Carr at 20-26 than any of the higher rated guys in the top 10.
Because I think the QBs will fall the Rams probably have a better shot of moving back from 13 than 2.
 

BonifayRam

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Question was How far is too far for trade down by Rams? Deep space outer limits would be Minn's#8 spot not good but the outer realm area.Some of my thoughts here are:

I certainly do not agree with Mel Kiper Jr.on the elite seven. I would say there is a elite five instead. I still think a trade partner is somewhere between questionable & doubtful with the 1.2 selection. If the Texans take a QB then a trade partner moves to questionable if they select Clowney the its moves to doubtful. I would think the Ram elite five board would be JC-JM-SW-GR-KM.

Questionable
Tex#1-1st QB
STL#2-DE or Trade
Jags#3 - LB/KM
Browns#4-2nd QB
Oak#5-WR/SW
Atl#6-OT
TB#7-WR/CB?
Minn#8-3rdQB

Doubtful
Tex#1-DE/JC
STL#2-OT
Jags#3-LB/KM
Browns#4-1st QB
Oak#5-WR/SW
Atl#6-OT
TB#7-WR/CB?
Minn#8-2nd QB

What would be the purpose of trading down? I see it as a main goal to trade for a top 8 second round pick #33 to #40 to go with our #44 in the 2014 draft with some other second day perk picks too. Anything less than a 2014 high 2nd rounder is out of the question. Dallas who needs a DE & DT badly may offer us the most in future picks for the opportunity to draft DL Jadeveon Clowney.

So I see the Vikings & Falcons as questionable trading partners. Vikings had three first round picks in 2013 & has an extra 3rd rd pick in this draft I could see giving us the better deal with them offering us 2/#40 & 3/#72. Vikings need a QB in a very bad way & this would give them the 2nd pick of the QB litter. The Falcons have an extra 4th rder selection and three 7ths. I could see the Falcons offering us 2/#37 & 4/#103. They need DE Jadeveon Clowney. Either way Snead's chances would be decent on that 2nd best OL (either JM or GR) will be there.

I would take the Vikings trade myself but taking the Vikings offer might then cause or set up a much bigger trade bounty to take place. One would think that the Vikings would not like to have to take the 3rd best QB of the draft using a First#8. However once the Browns find out that the Vikings are jumping in front of them for the 2nd best QB after the Texans takes the first ....things could go off the rails in the Rams favor. Browns would loose that comfort smirky-ness & might stir the Browns to raise the bid in order to secure that 2nd QB choice. Browns might have to offer up a 1.4,1.26 & a 3.83 to outbid the Vikings for our 1.2. Never know.

Trade with Vikings would give Rams selections for the first two days of the 2014 draft:
1-#8
1-#13
2-#40
2-#44
3-#72
3-#75

Projected trade with ticked off Browns would leave Snead with:
1-#4
1-#13
1-#26
2-#44
3-#72
3-#83
 
Last edited:

Ramhusker

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Question was How far is too far for trade down by Rams? Deep space outer limits would be Minn's#8 spot not good but the outer realm area.Some of my thoughts here are:

I certainly do not agree with Mel Kiper Jr.on the elite seven. I would say there is a elite five instead. I still think a trade partner is somewhere between questionable & doubtful with the 1.2 selection. If the Texans take a QB then a trade partner moves to questionable if they select Clowney the its moves to doubtful. I would think the Ram elite five board would be JC-JM-SW-GR-KM.

Questionable
Tex#1-1st QB
STL#2-DE or Trade
Jags#3 - LB/KM
Browns#4-2nd QB
Oak#5-WR/SW
Atl#6-OT
TB#7-WR/CB?
Minn#8-3rdQB

Doubtful
Tex#1-DE/JC
STL#2-OT
Jags#3-LB/KM
Browns#4-1st QB
Oak#5-WR/SW
Atl#6-OT
TB#7-WR/CB?
Minn#8-2nd QB

What would be the purpose of trading down? I see it as a main goal to trade for a top 8 second round pick #33 to #40 to go with our #44 in the 2014 draft with some other second day perk picks too. Anything less than a 2014 high 2nd rounder is out of the question. Dallas who needs a DE & DT badly may offer us the most in future picks for the opportunity to draft DL Jadeveon Clowney.

So I see the Vikings & Falcons as questionable trading partners. Vikings had three first round picks in 2013 & has an extra 3rd rd pick in this draft I could see giving us the better deal with them offering us 2/#40 & 3/#72. Vikings need a QB in a very bad way & this would give them the 2nd pick of the QB litter. The Falcons have an extra 4th rder selection and three 7ths. I could see the Falcons offering us 2/#37 & 4/#103. They need DE Jadeveon Clowney. Either way Snead's chances would be decent on that 2nd best OL (either JM or GR) will be there.

I would take the Vikings trade myself but taking the Vikings offer might then cause or set up a much bigger trade bounty to take place. One would think that the Vikings would not like to have to take the 3rd best QB of the draft using a First#8. However once the Browns find out that the Vikings are jumping in front of them for the 2nd best QB after the Texans takes the first ....things could go off the rails in the Rams favor. Browns would loose that comfort smirky-ness & might stir the Browns to raise the bid in order to secure that 2nd QB choice. Browns might have to offer up a 1.4,1.26 & a 3.83 to outbid the Vikings for our 1.2. Never know.

Trade with Vikings would give Rams selections for the first two days of the 2014 draft:
1-#8
1-#13
2-#40
2-#44
3-#72
3-#75

Projected trade with ticked off Browns would leave Snead with:
1-#4
1-#13
1-#26
2-#44
3-#72
3-#83


Good analysis. Everything hinges on what Houston does at #1. If they take Clowney, the Rams will probably be looking at trades with teams that most of us are unwilling to consider. Teams that would have to give the Rams a #1 pick in 2015 as part of the deal but we would more than likely be talking about moving down past our second 1st round pick. A trade that would be great for the future but not too popular this year.
 

RamzFanz

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I don't see a trade down.

Houston takes Clowney or trades down or Rams take Clowney.

If Clowney isn't there, Rams won't get a trade where they want because the draft is too deep. If Clowney is there, no way Rams pass. But I wouldn't mind if they traded, it's just that good this season.

My answer is 6 because I don't put Evans in that group especially since it's not as big a need as other positions. No way I blow the 2nd pick on the hopes a QB gets taken.

Trade with the Browns for both their 1s and other considerations if Clowney is on the board? I wouldn't be upset. I would rather have Clowney though.
 

iced

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I get that Clowney is the best player in the draft - but the Houston beat writers have been saying that there's no way the texans don't take a QB..I'd be shocked if they went clowney, even if he'd be worth it
 

Tron

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10 is the furthest I would trade down with our #2.
 

CGI_Ram

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Those seven players are Clowney, Auburn offensive tackle Greg Robinson, Buffalo linebacker Khalil Mack, Clemson receiver Sammy Watkins, Texas A&M offensive tackle Jake Matthews, Texas A&M receiver Mike Evans and Michigan offensive tackle Taylor Lewan.

Evans and Lewan are a notch below, in my book.

Clowney, Robinson, Mathews, Watkins, and Mack are the premium players, IMO.

Therefore we need 2 QB's to go top 7 to be comfortable going to 7.

8 is pushing it, but it seems every year someone goes top 10 that nobody expects. So 8 is the fringe for me.
 

SierraRam

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If Clowney's there at 2, trade it to 4 or 6. Get a sure thing (Matthews or Watkins)

Freakish, million dollar talent + 10 cent head = Bust

Remember, a laid back Coach Spurrior questioned his work ethic.
 

RamzFanz

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I get that Clowney is the best player in the draft - but the Houston beat writers have been saying that there's no way the texans don't take a QB..I'd be shocked if they went clowney, even if he'd be worth it

Then they'll have to trade. Taking a QB straight up at 1 is just not going to happen. I still believe even the Rams would trade up for Clowney for a later pick or two. Hell, if Houston doesn't want Clowney and Rams do, anything you offer them is better than QB at 1.
 

RamzFanz

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If Clowney's there at 2, trade it to 4 or 6. Get a sure thing (Matthews or Watkins)

Freakish, million dollar talent + 10 cent head = Bust

Remember, a laid back Coach Spurrior questioned his work ethic.

"While the assembled NFL was on his campus today, Spurrier said he merely meant that Clowney didn’t have a superhuman work ethic like Marcus Lattimore and others.

“I said [Lattimore] was exceptional. I maybe should not have compared [Clowney],” Spurrier said, via Brian Smith of the Houston Chronicle. “I should have said, ‘Jadeveon, with the rest of the team, he was right there doing what they did.’ Maybe that would’ve helped out. I compared him to a guy who went above and beyond what was asked.”"
 

iced

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Then they'll have to trade. Taking a QB straight up at 1 is just not going to happen. I still believe even the Rams would trade up for Clowney for a later pick or two. Hell, if Houston doesn't want Clowney and Rams do, anything you offer them is better than QB at 1.

uhh what?

In your scenario you're assuming that the Texans want to risk losing getting their guy.. Another team could leap them or just take their guy if they trade down too far(looking at you Jax, Cleveland, or Oakland)