Honest Question,

[Elmgrovegnome]

@Elmgrovegnome not saying that a group can't have a great game.

OC's design those plays around precise timing. QB depth, route length, and defensive looks are factored in.

Good players break down defensive plays in scramble situations, fuggin' widdle wussell Wilson as an example

I am not sure what you were getting at. If you were referring to Rodgers, his scrambling wasn't the Wilson, play extension type. It was the , "maybe if I move to the left, one of these receivers can play sandbox with me and get open" type of movement. Watch the highlights. He had all day.

 

[bluecollarram]

That's what I'm saying. He dictates the philosophy. But unless Boras & Groh continue to evolve (and they are getting better), nothing's really gonna change in the area of consistently hitting on these deeper throws (scheming open). In their defense, however, this team takes more intermediate-to-deep shots than 28 other teams in the league, so I don't think they're being shackled by Fisher in that respect.

Okay, Deep shots are actually being forced by the defense.

Nine men in the box forces PA to the intermediate areas. Problem is, Fisher LOVES running the ball on obvious downs.
Fisher has always said " Todd is close to breaking one". They play for two or three huge plays on offense instead of five or six intermediate plays that change the oppositional defensive phylosiphy.

 

[Elmgrovegnome]

That's what I'm saying. He dictates the philosophy. But unless Boras & Groh continue to evolve (and they are getting better), nothing's really gonna change in the area of consistently hitting on these deeper throws (scheming open). In their defense, however, this team takes more intermediate-to-deep shots than 28 other teams in the league, so I don't think they're being shackled by Fisher in that respect.

I thought they play calling has slowly looked better from game two on. I have no idea what happened game one. But today it seemed to regress late in the game and in the red zone. Did he tell Boras to dial it back after the interception?

The series just before the fake punt was typical late game conservative play calling, just like every game. We saw it against Arizona after Barron's int. and it was a three and out. You don't think that is scripted by Fisher to run the ball three times despite not being able to run against Arizona? Is Boras that scared to make a mistake?

 

[bluecollarram]

I am not sure what you were getting at. If you were referring to Rodgers, his scrambling wasn't the Wilson, play extension type. It was the , "maybe if I move to the left, one of these receivers can play sandbox with me and get open" type of movement. Watch the highlights. He had all day.

Sorry if there was any misunderstanding.
Not comparing AR to CK, point was the OC's job is to give the team the best chance to score. If there were 32 Aaron Rodgers things would be very different.

 

[…..]

I'm just curious as to how people would know that Fisher is this involved in the offense......

yup...I pause and think every time I hear "Fishers Offense"....because of course, Its not.

Further.....everyone says he's a defensive coach but its Greg Williams' defense, not Fishers.

All it is is a philosophy or "his way of thinking" and even that is in doubt to me or we never would have traded up for Tavon Austin because Tavon does not match the philosophy.

In my mind, the Rams are a confused franchise. They are waiting for the team to define itself. Fisher is a manager. A Leader of others. He manages the players, the staff and the games. Nothing is "his system" except for his ability to bring people into the effort. He expects those people to produce the results after providing them the outline.

am I wrong on any of this?

 

[Elmgrovegnome]

Okay, Deep shots are actually being forced by the defense.

Nine men in the box forces PA to the intermediate areas. Problem is, Fisher LOVES running the ball on obvious downs.
Fisher has always said " Todd is close to breaking one". They play for two or three huge plays on offense instead of five or six intermediate plays that change the oppositional defensive phylosiphy.

Today they did throw more intermediate stuff. Like you said the defense dictates what is there. If they don't load the box we probably see more running play's, less intermediate stuff and a mix of trick plays. If the defense feared the Rams receivers and their QB, and the OLine, then t is all different. Fisher has a QB that isn't being used, but his OLine can't run block and his receivers are pretty average. Point is, Fisher has had 4 years to work this all out and it is yielding a very similar result.

 

[Elmgrovegnome]

yup...I pause and think every time I hear "Fishers Offense"....because of course, Its not.

Further.....everyone says he's a defensive coach but its Greg Williams' defense, not Fishers.

All it is is a philosophy or "his way of thinking" and even that is in doubt to me or we never would have traded up for Tavon Austin because Tavon does not match the philosophy.

In my mind, the Rams are a confused franchise. They are waiting for the team to define itself. Fisher is a manager. A Leader of others. He manages the players, the staff and the games. Nothing is "his system" except for his ability to bring people into the effort. He expects those people to produce the results after providing them the outline.

am I wrong on any of this?

Disagree. Fisher dictates what he wants the theme of his offense and defense to be. He just happens to agree with and trust Williams. And how does he hire an OC who was never an OC before without thinking he has to guide him into what he wants?

And Tavon happened when Fisher let Schottenheimer talk him into trying a spread offense. Fisher gave it 4 games and pulled the plug. He decided not the OC. He doesn't just manage people and let them do their thing. If that was the case he wouldn't have been stuck hiring Cignetti.

 

[bluecollarram]

Today they did throw more intermediate stuff. Like you said the defense dictates what is there. If they don't load the box we probably see more running play's, less intermediate stuff and a mix of trick plays. If the defense feared the Rams receivers and their QB, and the OLine, then t is all different. Fisher has a QB that isn't being used, but his OLine can't run block and his receivers are pretty average. Point is, Fisher has had 4 years to work this all out and it is yielding a very similar result.

I agree with you on this. That's why I called it the
Fisher offense.
He's had a few OC's but I don't see a real difference in the plays.
Brings me back to my original question, "Fisher's offense"?
why work so hard for a FG?

 

[-X-]

I have no idea what happened game one.

D'Marco Farr commented on that in a podcast. The 49ers threw everything at the offensive line. Tons of stunts trying to confuse the O-line and make them figure out who to block. And it worked. It was a fairly masterful plan and it worked. It caused them to stutter, which in turn caused Gurley to stutter. And you know what happens when one team is successful at something. Everyone else will duplicate it until we figure out how to counter it. What SHOULD have happened was all but abandoning the run game and spreading out the offense. Instead Boras & Groh decided they would keep plugging away hoping they could create one seam in a crowded box that Gurley could get through and take it to the house. They were also slow to change things in the following game too. But to be fair, it's rough to do anything of significance against Seattle's defense. Ever since then, the playcalling has been trying to counter that with more and more intermediate and deep passing. Unfortunately, I don't think defenses respect Keenum even though they know we're going to pass against those fronts.

 

[…..]

Disagree. Fisher dictates what he wants the theme of his offense and defense to be. He just happens to agree with and trust Williams. And how does he hire an OC who was never an OC before without thinking he has to guide him into what he wants?

And Tavon happened when Fisher let Schottenheimer talk him into trying a spread offense. Fisher gave it 4 games and pulled the plug. He decided not the OC. He doesn't just manage people and let them do their thing. If that was the case he wouldn't have been stuck hiring Cignetti.

Well of course he dictates the theme. He surely gets directly involved when he thinks he sees something
....but typically I think he's evolved to management and over sees things. Obviously he's guiding.....thats his primary role

The things you mention, He did all that because even though he has his ways, he is not inflexible....he can be convinced to try some things. But if those things dont work, he chokes it off and retreats to his comfort zone. I figure when that happens and he gets too hands on, thats when we lose offensive rythem and have clock management problems.

But thats cool if you disagree. I just dont see him getting too far into details, not with the cadre he's surrounded himself with. Its just an opinion based on my observations, of course I could be wrong and looking at him on game days only.

 

[kurtfaulk]

Appreciate your response, just not buying it.

Again, not talking about personnel, Sam was a dink and dunk master in horns.

I'm talking about, Breese, doesn't have a cannon. Brady, doesn't have a cannon. Dalton, doesn't have a cannon

They are expected to attack the middle of the field, by design.

"take what the defense gives you"

To me, a pass that travels twelve yards down the hash is just as difficult as a pass that travels twelve yards down the line of scrimmage.
A pass down the hash guarantees positive yards, a pass down the line doesn't.

Please go watch the panthers game from 2013 and tell me what you think of where the offense was heading before Sam got injured.

.

 

[Boston Ram]

Fishers philosophy on offense is quite simple....obviously lol.

It's ball control, shorten the game and run the ball smash mouth style. it is to set up play action and throw deep. @bluecollarram you ask a great question as we seem to dink and dunk. I don't think that is what he wants. When drafting Austin it was to give the vertical stretch. Fisher always liked big play players. Impact players.

What you are seeing is not what Fisher wants....I don't think. His successful Titan teams ran well and had big play capabilities. Also used the TE and have yet to see that element emerge as a weapon also with the Rams.

His personal moves show he is trying, with Cook, Gurley, Austin etc. They just have missed on some especially TE and oline.

 

[jrry32]

Fishers philosophy on offense is quite simple....obviously lol.

It's ball control, shorten the game and run the ball smash mouth style. it is to set up play action and throw deep. @bluecollarram you ask a great question as we seem to dink and dunk. I don't think that is what he wants. When drafting Austin it was to give the vertical stretch. Fisher always liked big play players. Impact players.

What you are seeing is not what Fisher wants....I don't think. His successful Titan teams ran well and had big play capabilities. Also used the TE and have yet to see that element emerge as a weapon also with the Rams.

His personal moves show he is trying, with Cook, Gurley, Austin etc. They just have missed on some especially TE and oline.

I really feel like the pieces are there this year for the passing game. The concepts we're using him unleashed Britt, Austin, and Quick in a way they've never been unleashed before. They all look like legitimate threats. We just don't have a QB.

I'm not trying to dog, Keenum. He's doing the best he can. He's simply not a quality QB. I feel like if we had Big Ben or Brees or Brady or Rivers, our passing game would look quite good. I still think it can be solid this year with Goff. Fisher just needs to step up and make the change.

 

[Roman Snow]

I was pretty encouraged by the way the offense opened things up today, early on. A few things frustrate me, though:

• The afore mentioned blocking schemes that teams are planning around. The Niners did it. The Bills did it. With stunts. Our interior linemen are showing no discipline to pick up guys. It is frustrating watching Jamon Brown absolutely ignore a guy running past him untouched while he turns to Chip a guy already being blocked.
• Gurley isn't getting a burst through the line. Why did it seem on Tavons run up the middle he had a burst, but Todd seems to concede that a crease is clogged? (Unfair criticism?)
• We don't seem to get good second down production. It seems we will gain 5 on first down then hardly ever convert a second down. It always has to go to third down. We need to be more aggressive on second and short. (Boom- play action 15 yard pass)
• No aggressiveness in the red zone! As many have stated, where are the end zone shots?

 

[jrry32]

I was pretty encouraged by the way the offense opened things up today, early on. A few things frustrate me, though:

• The afore mentioned blocking schemes that teams are planning around. The Niners did it. The Bills did it. With stunts. Our interior linemen are showing no discipline to pick up guys. It is frustrating watching Jamon Brown absolutely ignore a guy running past him untouched while he turns to Chip a guy already being blocked.
• Gurley isn't getting a burst through the line. Why did it seem on Tavons run up the middle he had a burst, but Todd seems to concede that a crease is clogged? (Unfair criticism?)
• We don't seem to get good second down production. It seems we will gain 5 on first down then hardly ever convert a second down. It always has to go to third down. We need to be more aggressive on second and short. (Boom- play action 15 yard pass)
• No aggressiveness in the red zone! As many have stated, where are the end zone shots?

To be fair to Gurley, you have to keep in mind that the defense knows he's not on the field when Tavon is at HB. In that scenario, they're looking at a Rams personnel package that is 3 WRs and 2 TEs or something similar. They're not going to call the same defensive play that they would if the personnel package was 2 WRs, 2 TEs, and Gurley.

 

[Zaphod]

Part of it is just basic execution. The question is is it the offense that cannot be perfectly or easily executed, the players not being able to execute, or the coaching not being able to teach how to execute it. One aspect of Fisher's offense that always worked in Tennessee was the offensive line. Get that unit functioning correctly and we start to get a clearer picture of this offense. Then we see the run setting up the pass, and the passing game opening up. The 'bastardized' parts would no longer be necessary.

Other teams have very good Olines, without over investing in them. For example, Green Bay releases a pro bowler lineman and Rodgers still has 5 seconds to throw, and they can run the ball.

Green Bay is ridiculous.

 

[Elmgrovegnome]

Green Bay is ridiculous.

I see other teams patch their Olines together and they play better than the Rams. I really think Boudreau needs to go. Fisher did not have these problems when Munchak was on the staff. Bou evaluates and works out the players before the draft. So, if it isn't the coaching then it is on the players that the coach is helping to choose.

I was so happy that they addressed the OLine last year but now we are in the same position as before, except some of these guys aren't busts yet. GRob and Brown are not looking too good. Wichman can't run block. Every good line has at least two or three above average players. This one has zero.

 

[Roman Snow]

I really think Boudreau needs to go. Fisher did not have these problems when Munchak was on the staff. Bou evaluates and works out the players before the draft. So, if it isn't the coaching then it is on the players that the coach is helping to choose.

I'm starting to believe this, as well. I have for a while actually. I really had hope when all those linemen were drafted, but I have been pretty disappointed it hasn't all come together. I thought this would be close to Dallas 2.0 by now. It's feeling more like Seattle 2.0 on our O-line.

 

[PARAM]

I think the offensive problems all come back to Keenum. If he had a strong arm, we'd be doing a lot better. There were plays left on the field today.....open receivers he either didn't see, didn't feel comfortable making the throw, or underthrew.........so it comes back to him. As soon as those plays are made with regularity, as soon as the ball is zipped around the field, the 7 and 8 in the box will back off. Because they will have to back off.

The offensive philosophy? I'm pretty sure Fisher wouldn't care how many plays it took or how much time was taken off the clock, if the offense could put up 27-30 points with regularity. The scheme is there. The design is there. There are guys open. And if the lineman know their assignments and make their blocks, there are lanes to run through the defense. But it all comes back to Keenum.

That being said we're sitting at 3-2 right now with 6 NFC teams better (but just 1 undefeated), we're tied with a 7th and we have a better record than 8 others. That's not a bad position 1/3 of the way into the season. It's on to Detroit and then the Giants in London. We could be 5-2 going into the bye....should be 5-2 going into the bye. And if we are, we'll be among the top 6 records in the NFC.

If this performance by Keenum didn't light a fire under Fisher's arse to give Goff more practice reps, then we are in trouble. On the surface, the numbers look reasonable. 21 of 31 for 271 yards but the one of the two picks and at least 3 of the 4 sacks were poor decisions by #17. 24 of 31 for 300+ yards doesn't seem like a lot more but hitting wide open receivers (Quick who was wide open on third down for one), not taking the dumb sacks and certainly not throwing that first pick probably wins us the game despite the sieve that was our run defense yesterday.

And that is the difference between the Rams being a playoff team and a struggling to be .500 team. Keenum. A better arm back there would have won a game in which our defense played much less than stellar. A noodle arm and they (the D & ST) have to be perfect.

 

[Zaphod]

To be fair to Gurley, you have to keep in mind that the defense knows he's not on the field when Tavon is at HB. In that scenario, they're looking at a Rams personnel package that is 3 WRs and 2 TEs or something similar. They're not going to call the same defensive play that they would if the personnel package was 2 WRs, 2 TEs, and Gurley.

Exactly, it seems just way too obvious, and that can make the whole offense look worse than it is.