Honest Question,

[bluecollarram]

Really trying for the last few years for an answer.

Jeff Fisher's offense?

JF and GW have made a living, for years, on forcing the opponent to have 10 to 15 play drives to score. They believe, and rightfully so, that it's difficult for 31 other teams to be patient and disciplined for that long to score. They don't mind 4-6 yard receptions or 3-5 yard runs between the twenty's due to the extra opportunities their defense will have to make a play.

Jeff Fisher's offense, however, is based on ball control and TOP which leads to 10 to 15 play drives for points. Giving opponents defense multiple opportunities for the same game changing plays?

I've tried to reconcile this for a while, and I can't.

If anyone can help me with this, I'm all ears.

This has probably been answered before, but I haven't seen it or remembered when it was.

Any insight to this philosophy would be welcomed.

 

[jrry32]

Frankly, we have the pieces for a vertical offense. We just have never had the QB. But you're right, it is silly.

 

[kurtfaulk]

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I'm just waiting for Goff to come in and get comfortable. Once that happens I'm hoping to see an offense like the one that torched the panthers in 2013.

.

 

[bluecollarram]

.

I'm just waiting for Goff to come in and get comfortable. Once that happens I'm hoping to see an offense like the one that torched the panthers in 2013.

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I'm not really talking about personnel, Goff, Keenum or Mannion. I'm saying that dink and dunk or ball control or whatever you call it, limits the roster.
My point is, gameplans vary by opponent, Buffalo may not have the same holes as Detroit. Limiting the team to a portion of the playbook just by personnel hurts overall production.

What I'm asking is, why is the offensive gameplan so difficult by design.

 

[bwdenverram]

Personally I think the offense in general this year looks pretty good. If we can get the OL to actually open up holes for Gurley and get Goff going I think we'd be pretty good. At times the play calling is really bad but overall you can see they are trying to attack at least.

 

[kurtfaulk]

I'm not really talking about personnel, Goff, Keenum or Mannion. I'm saying that dink and dunk or ball control or whatever you call it, limits the roster.
My point is, gameplans vary by opponent, Buffalo may not have the same holes as Detroit. Limiting the team to a portion of the playbook just by personnel hurts overall production.

What I'm asking is, why is the offensive gameplan so difficult by design.

It has everything to do with the qb. Since Sam went down the Rams have had to dink and dunk out of necessity as all these back up qbs they've had starting can't push the ball down the field consistently, or particularly well either. They were on the cusp of an offensive explosion with Sam but his knee exploded and that was the end of that.

.

 

[TexasRam]

Seriously, there is no sound logic to Fishers offense.

It starts with a No turnovers at all cost philosophy that Trumps all system logic.

It's an out dated 7-9 mentality. He says no more 7-9 bullshit but then he creates the 7-9 bullshit.

Wins can be made against teams limping around like the Seahawks and Zona teams a few weeks ago, but what happens when you face a team playing well like Buffalo. Or if you have some key pieces of your defense missing like in the SF game. Then you lose.

 

[-X-]

It's the remnants of the Coryell system Schottenheimer left in place. Cignetti bastardized it a little, and now Boras & Groh are bastardizing it even more. It has no name and it has no real identity, but @jrry32 is right. There are pieces of a vertical offense in place, and they're working it back towards a more traditional Coryell, but there are still some bastards in there like read-option and wildcat for whatever reason. Wish we would have kept McDaniels' system in place instead and worked towards perfecting that.

 

[bluecollarram]

It has everything to do with the qb. Since Sam went down the Rams have had to dink and dunk out of necessity as all these back up qbs they've had starting can't push the ball down the field consistently, or particularly well either. They were on the cusp of an offensive explosion with Sam but his knee exploded and that was the end of that.

.

Appreciate your response, just not buying it.

Again, not talking about personnel, Sam was a dink and dunk master in horns.

I'm talking about, Breese, doesn't have a cannon. Brady, doesn't have a cannon. Dalton, doesn't have a cannon

They are expected to attack the middle of the field, by design.

"take what the defense gives you"

To me, a pass that travels twelve yards down the hash is just as difficult as a pass that travels twelve yards down the line of scrimmage.
A pass down the hash guarantees positive yards, a pass down the line doesn't.

 

[Elmgrovegnome]

Part of it is just basic execution. The question is is it the offense that cannot be perfectly or easily executed, the players not being able to execute, or the coaching not being able to teach how to execute it. One aspect of Fisher's offense that always worked in Tennessee was the offensive line. Get that unit functioning correctly and we start to get a clearer picture of this offense. Then we see the run setting up the pass, and the passing game opening up. The 'bastardized' parts would no longer be necessary.

Other teams have very good Olines, without over investing in them. For example, Green Bay releases a pro bowler lineman and Rodgers still has 5 seconds to throw, and they can run the ball.

 

[Elmgrovegnome]

Appreciate your response, just not buying it.

Again, not talking about personnel, Sam was a dink and dunk master in horns.

I'm talking about, Breese, doesn't have a cannon. Brady, doesn't have a cannon. Dalton, doesn't have a cannon

They are expected to attack the middle of the field, by design.

"take what the defense gives you"

To me, a pass that travels twelve yards down the hash is just as difficult as a pass that travels twelve yards down the line of scrimmage.
A pass down the hash guarantees positive yards, a pass down the line doesn't.

Fisher doesn't trust this personnel, so his scheme reflects that. He constantly is trying to coach against them making mistakes. Sam played that way under Fisher. It permeates the team. Fisher knows defense. He is comfortable taking risks on defense. He doesn't know offense so he is afraid of making mistakes. That kind of thinking is juxtaposed to the meaning of the word, offense.

Fisher tries to play defense with his offense.

 

[thirteen28]

Really trying for the last few years for an answer.

Jeff Fisher's offense?

JF and GW have made a living, for years, on forcing the opponent to have 10 to 15 play drives to score. They believe, and rightfully so, that it's difficult for 31 other teams to be patient and disciplined for that long to score. They don't mind 4-6 yard receptions or 3-5 yard runs between the twenty's due to the extra opportunities their defense will have to make a play.

Jeff Fisher's offense, however, is based on ball control and TOP which leads to 10 to 15 play drives for points. Giving opponents defense multiple opportunities for the same game changing plays?

I've tried to reconcile this for a while, and I can't.

If anyone can help me with this, I'm all ears.

This has probably been answered before, but I haven't seen it or remembered when it was.

Any insight to this philosophy would be welcomed.

That is an absolutely BRILLIANT question!

This is another reason why I am such a proponent of the Coryell system - it always has a deep option, and there is a big play built into every play. And still, you can run a power running game out of it (See Dallas Cowboys, mid-1990's, Washington Redskins, mid-80's to early 90's).

Yeah, you'll lose the TOP battle sometimes. But who cares when you win by 3 TD's.

 

[bluecollarram]

Part of it is just basic execution. The question is is it the offense that cannot be perfectly or easily executed, the players not being able to execute, or the coaching not being able to teach how to execute it. One aspect of Fisher's offense that always worked in Tennessee was the offensive line. Get that unit functioning correctly and we start to get a clearer picture of this offense. Then we see the run setting up the pass, and the passing game opening up. The 'bastardized' parts would no longer be necessary.

Other teams have very good Olines, without over investing in them. For example, Green Bay releases a pro bowler lineman and Rodgers still has 5 seconds to throw, and they can run the ball.

Would love to have an offensive line that could provide that time.

it is abnormal for that kind of time.

talking about timing, makes a difference, Rodgers gets to the top of his drop ball is usually out. Makes the OL look better than they are

 

[thirteen28]

Again, not talking about personnel, Sam was a dink and dunk master in horns.

Yeah, he took a lot of crap for that when he was in horns, even Kurt said Sam was afraid to push the ball down the field. But it was coaching. Nobody thinks he's afraid to push it down the field this season, or for that matter, last season.

 

[-X-]

Fisher doesn't trust this personnel, so his scheme reflects that. He constantly is trying to coach against them making mistakes. Sam played that way under Fisher. It permeates the team. Fisher knows defense. He is comfortable taking risks on defense. He doesn't know offense so he is afraid of making mistakes. That kind of thinking is juxtaposed to the meaning of the word, offense.

Fisher tries to play defense with his offense.

I'm just curious as to how people would know that Fisher is this involved in the offense. The OC is upstairs. Fisher already said (a couple of times) that he doesn't interfere in the offense except to offer an opinion in specific situations. His philosophy may be ball control and minimizing mistakes, but he doesn't call in any plays. Unless someone can point me to a quote that states otherwise, I have to keep rejecting this notion. Bradford really started to blossom under Schottenheimer in 2013, before he got hurt; so unless Fisher is waffling between being cautious and being reckless, then I have to maintain that it's the coordinators holding back the offense. Name one who has any sort of track record as a prolific vertical mind. Can't do it. So if anything, you can criticize Fisher for not hiring the right guy. But that's about it. This offense looks like the Vermeil offense of 97 and 98 before he hired Martz.

 

[Elmgrovegnome]

I'm just curious as to how people would know that Fisher is this involved in the offense. The OC is upstairs. Fisher already said (a couple of times) that he doesn't interfere in the offense except to offer an opinion in specific situations. His philosophy may be ball control and minimizing mistakes, but he doesn't call in any plays. Unless someone can point me to a quote that states otherwise, I have to keep rejecting this notion. Bradford really started to blossom under Schottenheimer in 2013, before he got hurt; so unless Fisher is waffling between being cautious and being reckless, then I have to maintain that it's the coordinators holding back the offense. Name one who has any sort of track record as a prolific vertical mind. Can't do it. So if anything, you can criticize Fisher for not hiring the right guy. But that's about it. This offense looks like the Vermeil offense of 97 and 98 before he hired Martz.

Or not being able to hire the right guy because modern day coordinators don't want to be shackled by Fisher's desires to play an old school, conservative offense. He doesn't call plays, as far as we know, but it is his team and he decides what type of offense he wants and where the emphasis lies.

 

[bluecollarram]

I'm just curious as to how people would know that Fisher is this involved in the offense. The OC is upstairs. Fisher already said (a couple of times) that he doesn't interfere in the offense except to offer an opinion in specific situations. His philosophy may be ball control and minimizing mistakes, but he doesn't call in any plays. Unless someone can point me to a quote that states otherwise, I have to keep rejecting this notion. Bradford really started to blossom under Schottenheimer in 2013, before he got hurt; so unless Fisher is waffling between being cautious and being reckless, then I have to maintain that it's the coordinators holding back the offense. Name one who has any sort of track record as a prolific vertical mind. Can't do it. So if anything, you can criticize Fisher for not hiring the right guy. But that's about it. This offense looks like the Vermeil offense of 97 and 98 before he hired Martz.

Not saying Fisher is sitting in on meetings, just looking at his offensive gameplans for twenty years, I've come to the conclusion that he thinks that Walter Payton, Willie Gualt, Jim Mchmaon, am
nd Dennis Gentry are walking through that door! They aren't

Building an 85 bears defense is great, building an 85 Bears offense?

He's failed.

 

[Elmgrovegnome]

Would love to have an offensive line that could provide that time.

it is abnormal for that kind of time.

talking about timing, makes a difference, Rodgers gets to the top of his drop ball is usually out. Makes the OL look better than they are

Did you watch the Sunday night game? Rodgers was scrambling, running all over looking for open receivers. They were timing it and it was 5 seconds. He was not throwing at the top of his drop that often. His line was stonewalling a decent Giants pass rush.

 

[-X-]

Or not being able to hire the right guy because modern day coordinators don't want to be shackled by Fisher's desires to play an old school, conservative offense. He doesn't call plays, as far as we know, but it is his team and he decides what type of offense he wants and where they emphasis lies.

That's what I'm saying. He dictates the philosophy. But unless Boras & Groh continue to evolve (and they are getting better), nothing's really gonna change in the area of consistently hitting on these deeper throws (scheming open). In their defense, however, this team takes more intermediate-to-deep shots than 28 other teams in the league, so I don't think they're being shackled by Fisher in that respect.

 

[bluecollarram]

@Elmgrovegnome not saying that a group can't have a great game.

OC's design those plays around precise timing. QB depth, route length, and defensive looks are factored in.

Good players break down defensive plays in scramble situations, fuggin' widdle wussell Wilson as an example