Giants DC Steve Spagnuolo: I’m not a magician

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MrMotes

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I don't think it's really fair to compare wins in that situation, because look at what they were left.

Linehan was left remnants from the GSOT, Spags was left Linehan's team. So that speaks worse on the crap show he left for Spags. It's no coincidence that after those great seasons everything started falling apart for Bulger and SJax under the guy.

It's true that 2006, in a lot of ways, was the last year for Martz's offense and things collapsed offensively after that. In fact we've been terrible on offense ever since 2006.

But it's also true that Fisher essentially gutted the roster left to him by Spagnulo as soon as he got here.

Linehan and Spags both failed to build any kind of roster after 3 years. Just compare what they left to what we have now after 3 years of Fisher...
 

HometownBoy

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It's true that 2006, in a lot of ways, was the last year for Martz's offense and things collapsed offensively after that. In fact we've been terrible on offense ever since 2006.

But it's also true that Fisher essentially gutted the roster left to him by Spagnulo as soon as he got here.

Linehan and Spags both failed to build any kind of roster after 3 years. Just compare what they left to what we have now after 3 years of Fisher...
True, but it's also unfair to compare both of them to a real coach. Neither of them had any business being an NFL head coach, but imo Spags wins out in the end of the day as the least shit of the two, given he left more successful players than Linehan did, though I guess it's not completely fair to compare drafting ability since Linehan was simply the Dragon to Zyggy's Big Bad and he was the one making all the idiot decisions.
 

dieterbrock

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I don't think it's really fair to compare wins in that situation, because look at what they were left.

Linehan was left remnants from the GSOT, Spags was left Linehan's team. So that speaks worse on the crap show he left for Spags. It's no coincidence that after those great seasons everything started falling apart for Bulger and SJax under the guy.
Well then there is the fact that Linehan took over a 6 win team and they won 8 games. Spags took over a 2 win team and only won 1 game.
I'm not saying Linehan was any good but I think Spags was the worst by far.
 

HometownBoy

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Well then there is the fact that Linehan took over a 6 win team and they won 8 games. Spags took over a 2 win team and only won 1 game.
I'm not saying Linehan was any good but I think Spags was the worst by far.
To be fair, look at who was on that 6 win team.

Bulger, SJax, Holt, Bruce, Kevin Curtis, Pace, Timmerman, Tinoisamoa, Will Witherspoon in his prime, Leonard Little and others. He did real good with somebody else's team, then the minute he got to making it his what happened? It fell apart. He took the 8-8, then he finally started adding his own tweaks and adjustments and they were 3-13 the very next year.

Now compare that to who Spags had: A severely gimped Bulger who would be replaced by Bradford the very next year, SJax running behind a line that consisted of it's star players being Alex Barron and Jason Brown, and Leonard Little(who would retire after that very season.) This shit show went to 1-15, Spags added his own tweaks and adjustments they were 7-9 the very next season.

I agree they're both horrible, but to say Linehan was better when he by all means did a better job of dismantling a passable team than Spags did trying to rebuilt a complete mess seems a little unfair to me.
 

Rmfnlt

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To be fair, look at who was on that 6 win team.

Bulger, SJax, Holt, Bruce, Kevin Curtis, Pace, Timmerman, Tinoisamoa, Will Witherspoon in his prime, Leonard Little and others. He did real good with somebody else's team, then the minute he got to making it his what happened? It fell apart. He took the 8-8, then he finally started adding his own tweaks and adjustments and they were 3-13 the very next year.

Now compare that to who Spags had: A severely gimped Bulger who would be replaced by Bradford the very next year, SJax running behind a line that consisted of it's star players being Alex Barron and Jason Brown, and Leonard Little(who would retire after that very season.) This crap show went to 1-15, Spags added his own tweaks and adjustments they were 7-9 the very next season.

I agree they're both horrible, but to say Linehan was better when he by all means did a better job of dismantling a passable team than Spags did trying to rebuilt a complete mess seems a little unfair to me.
While it's certainly true that Fisher gutted the Spagnuolo/Devaney roster, it's also true that a few pretty important players remain from that era:
* Saffold
* Kendricks
* Long
* Quinn
* Laurinaitis

FWIW.

I've noticed over the years that it's hard to get people to see things from a different perspective once they've made up their minds... especially when it comes to favorite (or most hated) coaches.

I don't hold any grudges against prior coaches. I look at it this way:
Based on everything I've ever seen, read or heard about NFL coaches, they put in unbelievably long hours and are 100% dedicated to being a winner. They take on a job, do it the way they feel it needs to be done.

Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't.

But I can't believe for a moment that any of them want to lose or deliberately sabotage their team. It just doesn't work out. Some fail in one spot and succeed in others (Carroll, for example).

Jeff Fisher is our head coach now. Clearly, he has built this team in his own image. If it doesn't work out, I won't denegrate him for it or hate him... he tried hard, I know that.... I respect that.
 

dieterbrock

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To be fair, look at who was on that 6 win team.

Bulger, SJax, Holt, Bruce, Kevin Curtis, Pace, Timmerman, Tinoisamoa, Will Witherspoon in his prime, Leonard Little and others. He did real good with somebody else's team, then the minute he got to making it his what happened? It fell apart. He took the 8-8, then he finally started adding his own tweaks and adjustments and they were 3-13 the very next year.

Now compare that to who Spags had: A severely gimped Bulger who would be replaced by Bradford the very next year, SJax running behind a line that consisted of it's star players being Alex Barron and Jason Brown, and Leonard Little(who would retire after that very season.) This crap show went to 1-15, Spags added his own tweaks and adjustments they were 7-9 the very next season.

I agree they're both horrible, but to say Linehan was better when he by all means did a better job of dismantling a passable team than Spags did trying to rebuilt a complete mess seems a little unfair to me.
I think youre giving Spags a heavy dose of benefit of the doubt while minimizing any positive Linehan had. Steven Jackson was in his prime and had his career best under Linehan. He never came close to that success again. And as much as Linehan had leftovers from the gsot days he also inherited veterans that basically didn't buy in to him and didn't support him.
And in Linehan 2nd season it was a train wreck like both of Spags train wrecks and he at least mustered 3 wins. IMO Linehan was billed as an offense coach and he at least showed some of that year 1 and since he left the Rams. No idea what Spags identity is or was as his vaunted d from his giants days was nothing like what we saw in at Louis or in new orleans
 

HometownBoy

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I think youre giving Spags a heavy dose of benefit of the doubt while minimizing any positive Linehan had. Steven Jackson was in his prime and had his career best under Linehan. He never came close to that success again. And as much as Linehan had leftovers from the gsot days he also inherited veterans that basically didn't buy in to him and didn't support him.
And in Linehan 2nd season it was a train wreck like both of Spags train wrecks and he at least mustered 3 wins. IMO Linehan was billed as an offense coach and he at least showed some of that year 1 and since he left the Rams. No idea what Spags identity is or was as his vaunted d from his giants days was nothing like what we saw in at Louis or in new orleans
I don't think so, I think I'm showing you what Spags did right and bringing back into focus what Linehan did completely wrong that was being glossed over.

The veterans didn't buy in because Linehan didn't earn their respect, Linehan lost his team, they weren't out to get him from the get go. Linehan aggrandized the situation to the point where Holt, Bruce and Jackson were screaming at him on live TV. Linehan was a conceited guy and it came back to bite him in the ass big time when he tried to run over the players who were a bigger part of the Rams than he was. The guys didn't hate Haslett, and the few that remained didn't hate Spags. The only person they disliked was Linehan, and I balk at the idea that he was just some poor schlub who got suckered into their hategasm.

Also I don't see how the at least he mustered 3 wins stacks up, given when Spags took complete reign over the team he got them to 7 wins, something Linehan can't say unless we're going back to the season where he was relying heavily on Martz team.

Linehan did go on to have success while Spags is still struggling to stay afloat, but that has nothing to do with their ability as a head coach, and both had their say completely diminished. Saying Linehan is better at calling offensive plays and nothing else than Spags is better at calling defensive plays and nothing else really doesn't lend into the HC discussion.

I look at it like this, Linehan inherited a better team, destroyed it, lost about everyone in the locker room, insulted and ran off some of the best players in Ram history, some of who are future HOFers, was an unapologetic dick about it, was wild and made his team play a style of of football that the talent couldn't back, and basically left a dumpster fire for the regime taking over for him.

Spags inherited a poor team, didn't make it much better, was a control freak who rubbed people the wrong way, was mean to the equipment manager, was so conservative I'm surprised he didn't punt on every down just so they didn't do anything dangerous, he buckled under peer pressure and got away with what was working to placate the clamor for change, tried to force his team to play ball in a way the roster wasn't built for and was ran off, but still helped contribute to bringing in players who are stalwarts to this team and left the dumpster a little less on fire than it was to begin with.
 

Angry Ram

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In 2010 the Rams with Spags were on the rebound.

Offensively, they had their QB of the future, 2 bookend tackles, a superstar RB, a stud guard going into his second contract, and a lightning rod rookie WR.

On defense, a young Chris Long and James Laurinaitis were the best players. They also had 2 young CBs, a young safety that looked like he could play, and a couple Giants FA from a SB team we all were excited about.

And it was true...at 7-9 from 1-15 it was a big improvement.

It's too bad Sam Bradford got hurt, Jason Smith and Jason Brown stopped caring (alhtough I gave Jason Brown a pass), Mardy Gilyard was only draft hype.

Ron Bartell and Bradley Fletcher both got hurt, Darian Stewart ended up as JAG, James Butler was meh, Fred Robbins had one good season.

Also the lockout didn't help matters, plus way too many injuries at CB and OL.

It wasn't all Spags fault, and while I think he didn't help matters in 2011, it was more signing these old "never-were" players and saying screw you to development.
 

dieterbrock

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I don't want either of them back but if I had to choose I'd take Linehan over Spags

And gladly I will appreciate what we have in Fisher as he's light years ahead of both.
 

Mojo Ram

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And gladly I will appreciate what we have in Fisher as he's light years ahead of both
Indeed.
We had two awful HC's who are both better served as being unit coordinators. Then there's the 10 years of shite drafting going back even further that.
 

Rmfnlt

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Indeed.
We had two awful HC's who are both better served as being unit coordinators. Then there's the 10 years of shite drafting going back even further that.

And that (IMO), in a nutshell, is why we're still digging out of this mess.
 
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Mojo Ram

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And that (IMO), in a nutshell, is why we're still digging our of this mess.
It really is. It's like having a kitchen stocked full of groceries(1999/2000) and one day you decide to start ordering out every night for chinese for the next 10 years. Eventually your fridge is full of rotten leftovers and you're food budget has skyrocketed.
 

Rmfnlt

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It really is. It's like having a kitchen stocked full of groceries(1999/2000) and one day you decide to start ordering out every night for chinese for the next 10 years. Eventually your fridge is full of rotten leftovers and you're food budget has skyrocketed.
Yeah... fans want to point to Spagnuolo (for example) and blame the mess we're in on him alone. Or Linehan.

To me, it started well before those guys took the reigns... we drafted poorly for - like you said - a long time.

The hole was very large... Linehan made it larger, Spagnuolo/Devaney put a small dent in it (see the list of current, good players that remain) but much work was left to Fisher and Snead.
Now all they have to do is deliver. (y);):cheers:
 

HometownBoy

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I don't want either of them back but if I had to choose I'd take Linehan over Spags

And gladly I will appreciate what we have in Fisher as he's light years ahead of both.
I can definitely agree with this.

Here's to Fisher. It's nice to spend an offseason being hopeful and talking about unnecessary boring filler about the team prior like other fans, instead of sitting around fretting and wondering how half the guys on the team are still in football. :cheers:
 

MrMotes

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Talk about weak tea. What kind of team did Vermeil inherit?

If your team still sucks after 3 years, ain't nobody's fault but your own...
 

HometownBoy

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Talk about weak tea. What kind of team did Vermeil inherit?

If your team still sucks after 3 years, ain't nobody's fault but your own...
Actually Vermeil inherited a lot of guys that went on to help him win that Super Bowl, he just needed to put them in the right direction and get them a few more key players like Pace, Holt, Warner, Faulk, Little and co. Other key guys like Lyght, Bruce, Lyle, Farr, Mike Jones, Conwell, Wilkins, Carter and others were all there waiting for proper management, but I get the point you're putting down.

Spags is in no way a GOOD coach, I just don't think he's the worst, definitely not worse than Linehan.