Fisher isn't out of touch in my opinion (visual aid)

[Mackeyser]

What I AM telling you is that it can work as it is with just a bit more production out of the QB position and maybe one or two upgrades at the playmaker positions.

Well, we just couldn't disagree more on that point, but it's moot. Fisher and Snead have pushed all of their chips into the middle on the table making this their plan...

 

[PressureD41]

He came to our Rams because of the money make no mistake about that. Now he may have liked Bradford more than other Qbs on other teams but the money was the main factor.As far as todays game it's not necessarily more passing just better play calling. I understand our Qb was the problem so now with Goff or Wentz i would expect better playcalling.A better quality Qb means alot less of under and overthrown passes.It would be nice if Fisher let his OC do his job and maybe our offense won't be predictable at times.

Devils Advocate here: Fisher is a SoCal boy who grow up being a Rams fan. Going to the games with his Father

 

[-X-]

What I AM telling you is that it can work as it is with just a bit more production out of the QB position and maybe one or two upgrades at the playmaker positions.

Well, we just couldn't disagree more on that point, but it's moot. Fisher and Snead have pushed all of their chips into the middle on the table making this their plan...

I'm sure we could. Why don't you expand a little on why you don't think it could work as is. I already explained why I think it could. Where am I wrong?

 

[Mackeyser]

Boras' offense was already regressing at the end of the season, especially at the QB position. Only some of that was on Keenum. A fair amount of that was scheme.

This offense can simply NOT play from behind. If the offense or defense gives up points, it's basically game over. This offense that they will run with Keenum or Mannion or Goff does not feature many routes where the QB can hit the receiver in stride to allow for YAC. As you'll recall, any time a Rams receiver got YAC, it was a surprise...a genuine surprise. "he caught it...AND HE'S STILL RUNNING?!!! GO!!! GO!!!"

With a year of film of how the Rams intend to block for Gurley, his speed won't be a surprise (I truly think he caught teams off guard with his burst). Teams are going to stack the box and force the Rams to beat them through the air. Boras has a few misdirection counters like Tavon on the reverse, etc, but those aren't staple plays. We had a few successful screen passes, but in general, it's still a cringeworthy play that loses yards for the Rams. With the 3rd toughest schedule in the NFL this year, we're going to have to give teams a reason to respect the pass.

How'd we do with Boras' pass offense that Fisher and Snead think Goff is perfect for? Near historically bad in the modern era. What was it, 145 yds per game?

I'm glad Cook is gone, but he was our best seam threat. It got so bad that over that last few weeks, we KNEW anything more than 3rd and 6 wasn't going to happen. And I realize that Case Keenum isn't star-spangled awesome, but he can execute a well designed play and throw the ball 10 yards downfield. He's a competent QB. Which begs the question, how, no matter who's the QB going back 4 years, can this team still not have a QB throw the ball past the 1st down marker?

Either, every single QB doesn't understand how to make a first down or the scheme absolutely STINKS ON ICE at accomplishing the Fisher's main goal after scoring points, which is to chew up clock, get 1st downs and convert 3rd downs. It's a combination of playcalling, scheme and personnel.

They're not changing the Offense. They BELIEVE in it. They believe they won with it (I am fairly certain they won in spite of it). They BELIEVE that it's tenable long term. I'm fairly certain that defenses have proven to adapt much faster than offenses unless they have unique elements. This Rams offense has no unique elements. And while Gurley ran for hundreds of yards in consecutive games, he also got held to around 50 a fair number of times. Without Gurley breaking long runs, the offense stalls, the box is stacked and Johnny Hekker gets the Jimmy Leg from punting every few minutes.

Fisher and Snead have drafted well... if they were going to try and emulate Pittsburgh which for being a smashmouth running team has a dynamic passing game now that the QB knows it inside out and has years in the system. Earhardt Perkins systems are like that.

But they aren't going to do that. They are going to keep trying to fit a square peg in a round hole. They're going to keep trying to run this quasi-WCO with other elements duct-taped on with miscast personnel and a scheme that doesn't take advantage of the box stacking that happens with Gurley in the backfield.

Defense and Special Teams have really kept this team in games they had no business being in. I can't recall the last game the Offense just...won. And because of the commitment to the Boras offense, there's little chance that happens in the future.

 

[-X-]

Boras' offense was already regressing at the end of the season, especially at the QB position. Only some of that was on Keenum. A fair amount of that was scheme.

Well that's just not true. There's also no way to qualify such a statement. Especially considering there was a mid-season coordinator change.

This offense can simply NOT play from behind. If the offense or defense gives up points, it's basically game over. This offense that they will run with Keenum or Mannion or Goff does not feature many routes where the QB can hit the receiver in stride to allow for YAC. As you'll recall, any time a Rams receiver got YAC, it was a surprise...a genuine surprise. "he caught it...AND HE'S STILL RUNNING?!!! GO!!! GO!!!"

That's a bit dramatic. But tell me how you don't see the correlation between not being able to score points and the QB position being lackluster? And how can you possibly know how many routes the playbook has that can hit the receiver in stride? Shit, half of the passing routes featured a smoke route or quick screen to Tavon that gets set up by blocking (disguised as run blocking) and he gets sprung for huge gains. That didn't surprise me. It happened a lot. There were also some decent routes that were drawn up for Kenny Britt that Keenum took advantage of once he finally got the start. Don't remember the Tampa game?

How'd we do with Boras' pass offense that Fisher and Snead think Goff is perfect for? Near historically bad in the modern era. What was it, 145 yds per game?

Why would it matter how many passing yards we have when we're a 50/50 run/pass team? The offense is all about ball control, clock management, running the ball, and play-action. Seems to me you're wanting them to evolve to a Coryell offense or something, and that's just not gonna happen. My OP was about how we're a balanced offense that simply missed a few opportunities to put games away due to lackluster quarterbacking. And remember, that was Boras' first year (and it wasn't even a full one). For all the grief we spew about QBs having to adjust to a new coordinator, wouldn't you think that would extend to the entire team as well? I think they adjusted okay for a mid-season switch, and now they're gonna have a full camp and preseason to master it. I'd hold off on judging it as a doomed offense for that reason alone.

I'm glad Cook is gone, but he was our best seam threat. It got so bad that over that last few weeks, we KNEW anything more than 3rd and 6 wasn't going to happen. And I realize that Case Keenum isn't star-spangled awesome, but he can execute a well designed play and throw the ball 10 yards downfield. He's a competent QB. Which begs the question, how, no matter who's the QB going back 4 years, can this team still not have a QB throw the ball past the 1st down marker?

Again. That's an indictment of the QB play last year. Which is exactly what I was suggesting in my OP. Throwing short of the sticks isn't something I saw a ton of; but even if I did, it's not an anomaly in this league. Defenses protect that area of the field for a reason in 3rd down situations. I agree that Keenum is a competent QB, and that's why I wanted to draft a shit ton more weapons. But at the same time, being 'competent' poses its own limitations. Will a 'great' QB be able to boost the offense? I don't see why not. Hell, even 'good' would have been good for a minimum of 4 additional wins last year.

Either, every single QB doesn't understand how to make a first down or the scheme absolutely STINKS ON ICE at accomplishing the Fisher's main goal after scoring points, which is to chew up clock, get 1st downs and convert 3rd downs. It's a combination of playcalling, scheme and personnel.

I'll just reinforce the point that Boras had half a season to implement his offense, so I don't see how anyone can point to scheme as being a problem. As it relates to making first downs (I assume you mean the bad 3rd down conversion rate), everyone knows that the Rams ranked dead last in 3rd down conversion percentage last year. But what they may not know, is that they jumped up 7 spots in the last 3 games - ahead of teams like Denver and Pitt. And that's because of Keenum and a half-year of new scheme. Imagine how much it can jump with a full year under Boras and a more proficient passer.

They're not changing the Offense. They BELIEVE in it. They believe they won with it (I am fairly certain they won in spite of it). They BELIEVE that it's tenable long term. I'm fairly certain that defenses have proven to adapt much faster than offenses unless they have unique elements. This Rams offense has no unique elements. And while Gurley ran for hundreds of yards in consecutive games, he also got held to around 50 a fair number of times. Without Gurley breaking long runs, the offense stalls, the box is stacked and Johnny Hekker gets the Jimmy Leg from punting every few minutes.

Of course they're not changing the offense. And it is tenable long term. It's even more dangerous in January and February, because what they run is EXACTLY what you need when you face the tougher defenses in the league in the playoffs. I reject the notion that this offense has no unique elements. There was a feature video illustrating exactly what made it unique - and that's being able to run multiple plays out of the same exact formation with disguised looks. While that's not ground-breaking or anything, it is something that eliminates the possibility of defenses knowing what you're gonna do.

But they aren't going to do that. They are going to keep trying to fit a square peg in a round hole. They're going to keep trying to run this quasi-WCO with other elements duct-taped on with miscast personnel and a scheme that doesn't take advantage of the box stacking that happens with Gurley in the backfield.

I don't understand how you feel that they're trying to jam a square peg in a round hole. They drafted a ton of linemen, picked up the best RB in the league, and are finally in a position to improve on the QB position. The last part being all you need to succeed if you're a ground & pound team with a stellar defense. There has to be a limitless amount of analysts and football professionals who parrot the axiom "no matter what you do, you're not going to win in this league without a QB." While true, it's hardly the only thing required for success. 7 of the top 10 teams in terms of passing yards didn't even make the playoffs last year. I'd be willing to bet fans of those teams would GLADLY trade in some of those passing yards for a stout run game and good defense. Similar to how you'd trade in facets of our offense for a bunch of passing yards. The recipe for success, however, lies square in the middle. And that's why I started this thread. To illustrate how better (or more) passing was the only thing that held us back last year. I still haven't seen where you (or anyone else) has proven that's not the case.

 

[DR RAM]

Out biggest problem by far, was NOT being able to convert 3rd downs last year. Everyone will probably agree with that. Why we didn't convert those 3rd downs is a number of problems. Our OC, QB, then OL, then WR/TE, and RB.

There are a lot of things we need to fix, but our QB play was horrible. We will get better there, well, we already have. We need a couple other things to click too, we don't have to have all of them, but a couple. IF we had a QB who could extend a play, and convert a few with his feet, it would make up for some of those other things, IMO.

I love Fisher, and I'll say it out loud!

We will be better this year, with a better QB.

 

[Mackeyser]

Well that's just not true. There's also no way to qualify such a statement. Especially considering there was a mid-season coordinator change.


That's a bit dramatic. But tell me how you don't see the correlation between not being able to score points and the QB position being lackluster? And how can you possibly know how many routes the playbook has that can hit the receiver in stride? crap, half of the passing routes featured a smoke route or quick screen to Tavon that gets set up by blocking (disguised as run blocking) and he gets sprung for huge gains. That didn't surprise me. It happened a lot. There were also some decent routes that were drawn up for Kenny Britt that Keenum took advantage of once he finally got the start. Don't remember the Tampa game?


Why would it matter how many passing yards we have when we're a 50/50 run/pass team? The offense is all about ball control, clock management, running the ball, and play-action. Seems to me you're wanting them to evolve to a Coryell offense or something, and that's just not gonna happen. My OP was about how we're a balanced offense that simply missed a few opportunities to put games away due to lackluster quarterbacking. And remember, that was Boras' first year (and it wasn't even a full one). For all the grief we spew about QBs having to adjust to a new coordinator, wouldn't you think that would extend to the entire team as well? I think they adjusted okay for a mid-season switch, and now they're gonna have a full camp and preseason to master it. I'd hold off on judging it as a doomed offense for that reason alone.


Again. That's an indictment of the QB play last year. Which is exactly what I was suggesting in my OP. Throwing short of the sticks isn't something I saw a ton of; but even if I did, it's not an anomaly in this league. Defenses protect that area of the field for a reason in 3rd down situations. I agree that Keenum is a competent QB, and that's why I wanted to draft a crap ton more weapons. But at the same time, being 'competent' poses its own limitations. Will a 'great' QB be able to boost the offense? I don't see why not. Hell, even 'good' would have been good for a minimum of 4 additional wins last year.


I'll just reinforce the point that Boras had half a season to implement his offense, so I don't see how anyone can point to scheme as being a problem. As it relates to making first downs (I assume you mean the bad 3rd down conversion rate), everyone knows that the Rams ranked dead last in 3rd down conversion percentage last year. But what they may not know, is that they jumped up 7 spots in the last 3 games - ahead of teams like Denver and Pitt. And that's because of Keenum and a half-year of new scheme. Imagine how much it can jump with a full year under Boras and a more proficient passer.


Of course they're not changing the offense. And it is tenable long term. It's even more dangerous in January and February, because what they run is EXACTLY what you need when you face the tougher defenses in the league in the playoffs. I reject the notion that this offense has no unique elements. There was a feature video illustrating exactly what made it unique - and that's being able to run multiple plays out of the same exact formation with disguised looks. While that's not ground-breaking or anything, it is something that eliminates the possibility of defenses knowing what you're gonna do.


I don't understand how you feel that they're trying to jam a square peg in a round hole. They drafted a ton of linemen, picked up the best RB in the league, and are finally in a position to improve on the QB position. The last part being all you need to succeed if you're a ground & pound team with a stellar defense. There has to be a limitless amount of analysts and football professionals who parrot the axiom "no matter what you do, you're not going to win in this league without a QB." While true, it's hardly the only thing required for success. 7 of the top 10 teams in terms of passing yards didn't even make the playoffs last year. I'd be willing to bet fans of those teams would GLADLY trade in some of those passing yards for a stout run game and good defense. Similar to how you'd trade in facets of our offense for a bunch of passing yards. The recipe for success, however, lies square in the middle. And that's why I started this thread. To illustrate how better (or more) passing was the only thing that held us back last year. I still haven't seen where you (or anyone else) has proven that's not the case.

I hope you're right.

Everything I've seen says otherwise.

 

[-X-]

I hope you're right.

Everything I've seen says otherwise.

I hope so too. I tend to talk myself into these things.
But my glass is always half full, so there's that.

 

[nighttrain]

Remember when Vermiel was out of touch? That stuff is usually BS.

Vermiel suddenly wasn't out of touch once they added a skilled OC to his staff and improved the QB, OL, and skill positions. He was revealed to be an exceptional HEAD COACH who took care of his players.

The same could happen to Fish IF his staff is up to snuff. That's the unknown. But they're gonna have QB, OL, and skill positions covered. WR isn't great by any means, might not even be good, but so many teams have won it all without a good WR corps that I don't think that is going to matter. Here's hoping the same thing happens for Fish, because he's a great dude and I love the way he handles this team and the media.

Where o where is Mad Mike?
train

 

[BuiltRamTough]

Funny how no one says "thank you Fish" "thank you Les" for moving up in the draft to get a franchise QB. All people do is bash the crew.

Donald and Gurley. Two hall of fame type dudes and now maybe a boarder line third guy.

They are trying, let's give them some credit.

 

[nighttrain]

W/ regards to Quick, I think its still fair to say last year was a mental and physical learning period w/ his reconstructed shoulder. I too hope he can step his game up. lets hope we can add one good prospect @ wr this draft. I think I rather go WR & OC vs. WR & TE in Rd 4. Value appears to be a better match. Really bad draft class for TE after top 3-4 tight ends imho
Maybe add Boldin on a 1year deal because I don't see a day 3 draft pick at wr helping us this year or possibly the following year.

get the German guy for the TE
train

 

[Merlin]

get the German guy for the TE
train

I'd like to see us draft him, think he's got a shot in this league and his upside blows away most guys you're gonna get in that real estate he'll be available.

 

[Merlin]

Where o where is Mad Mike?
train

Yeah man. I know he wouldn't be popular around here but I would have loved to see what he'd do with Gurley playing Faulk's role and getting out there in the pattern on passing plays. And Mad Mike also has a magic touch with receivers, he is like Williams in that he really gets the most from what he's got.

But who knows, maybe Groh will be the real deal. He's been under a couple real good OCs and should be ready for this opportunity. His experience points to WCO type approach in the scheme, which does favor Goff very much, so maybe that's part of the whole thing. If that's the case they bring Goff in, spread the field, and maybe score a whole effin lot more points this year.

 

[nighttrain]

hoping
train

 

[ItsonTavon]

Here is my 0.02$

If we can get better Oline play, and less Offensive penalties.

Not have have our receiving group catch instead of drop them.. *cough* *cough* Cook.

All while staying healthily at both side of the field.

I can see the Rams becoming a powerhouse team.

 

[Juice]

So, if the QB play could have been a little better last year, we would have had a better record. The problem, X, is that if we can't develop a freaking QB, then what do we have to look forward to next season.

Looking at those stats you posted brought a couple of things to mind. Our defense carried us, and we knew that already. We came out strong, then fired our Offensive Coordinator, benched our QB, and then went on a spree to finish the season. New offensive Coordinator at the beginning of the season means teams can not game plan against us. Then they learn how to game plan against us and our QB sucks. The game plan doesn't change so our Offensive Coordinator sucks. Installing a new Offensive Coordinator, new QB, means a new game plan that opposing defenses can't scheme against. If this is true, it scares me. There is a pattern there, and it looks like a head coach that can't hire somebody with the experience that is needed on the offensive side of the ball. Believe me, bro. Those stats you showed us tells me that all over again.

Besides all of that, what proof do we have that our current coaching staff can develop a QB anyway. We did nothing with Bradford, but he was good while he was healthy. We had back up QBs, that showed flashes but could not get it done. We traded for Foles, and couldn't do anything with him. We drafted Sean Mannion, and we say that we are all behind Case, but we spent all those picks to draft a QB this year?

I am not saying that Fisher can't keep up with where the offensive side of the ball in today's NFL. I am saying that until Fisher hires someone on that side of the ball that can equal Williams on the defensive side, the stats next year will show the same thing. What will we be saying? Case started the first, what, six games? We have a rookie QB? Boras isn't the coordinator we thought he was? Is the offensive line wasn't as good as we thought?

There are two questions. Can we develop a QB, and do we have a game plan that fits the players that we currently have on the freaking roster? Last years stats are just that. The answer to these two questions will shape our future both immediate and long term.

 

[Mojo Ram]

But who knows, maybe Groh will be the real deal. He's been under a couple real good OCs and should be ready for this opportunity. His experience points to WCO type approach in the scheme, which does favor Goff very much, so maybe that's part of the whole thing. If that's the case they bring Goff in, spread the field, and maybe score a whole effin lot more points this year.

That would be so weird. It's been so long.