First Take: Seattle Michael Robinson Talks Rams

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jrry32

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Well, again - he doesn't have to be as good as Faulk or Dickerson to be a Hall of Famer. How were Franco Harris, Thurman Thomas or John Riggins better than Jackson - except in so far as they had far superior teams surrounding them for most of their careers? Those three are all legitimate Hall of Famers - and Jackson is clearly in the discussion to be better than them. Maybe they are better than him - but it is NOT clear, unlike for Faulk and Dickerson.

If the standard to be in the Hall of Fame is to be as good as Faulk and Dickerson - well, most of the NFL Hall of Fame needs to be removed.

Riggins really shouldn't be in the HOF. It's like the people that argue that so and so is a HOFer because they're better than Lynn Swann.

Thurman Thomas and Franco Harris were both better HBs than Jackson.

Jackson isn't a HOF caliber HB.

if its not based on numbers than how is LT better?? Jackson was bigger, stronger yet still quick, put up receiving numbers like a wide receiver many years, broke more tackles than I can count and if its a matter of personality and off the field... so idk can you define for me what makes him or anyone else at that time better?

Tomlinson was one of the most complete HBs of all time. He was quicker than Jackson, faster than Jackson, better balance, better vision, better receiver, better blocker...he was just a lot better than Steven Jackson.

Frankly, the fact that I am having this discussion is why I think some of our fan-base overrates Steven Jackson. Tomlinson is a top 10 HB of all time.
 

Akrasian

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Riggins really shouldn't be in the HOF. It's like the people that argue that so and so is a HOFer because they're better than Lynn Swann.

Thurman Thomas and Franco Harris were both better HBs than Jackson.

Jackson isn't a HOF caliber HB.

Stating it without argument doesn't make it so.

Note I'm not saying that Jackson was definitely better than Thomas and Harris. But both had more weapons surrounding them. Jackson was arguably a better receiver than Harris, and arguably a better blocker - and his YPC at this point in his career is slightly higher. His career isn't over, of course.

Much like Harris, Thomas had a HOF QB playing with him. His stats are a little better than Jackson's - but how much of that is the greater talent level surrounding him? There's no doubt that the 4 time AFC champ Bills were much better in overall talent than the Rams that Jackson played with for most of his career. There is a legit argument that that made a big difference in their stats.

Fact is - Jackson was one of the best HBs in the NFL for years - despite playing on miserable teams - which were NOT his fault. On a good team Jackson would likely have gained slightly more per carry and scored more touchdowns. The argument for Jackson being a HOFer is that he was an elite running back for years - which he was. Was he elite enough, and for long enough? Well, that requires arguments - NOT just statements that he wasn't as good as so and so.
 

jrry32

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Stating it without argument doesn't make it so.

Note I'm not saying that Jackson was definitely better than Thomas and Harris. But both had more weapons surrounding them. Jackson was arguably a better receiver than Harris, and arguably a better blocker - and his YPC at this point in his career is slightly higher. His career isn't over, of course.

Much like Harris, Thomas had a HOF QB playing with him. His stats are a little better than Jackson's - but how much of that is the greater talent level surrounding him? There's no doubt that the 4 time AFC champ Bills were much better in overall talent than the Rams that Jackson played with for most of his career. There is a legit argument that that made a big difference in their stats.

Fact is - Jackson was one of the best HBs in the NFL for years - despite playing on miserable teams - which were NOT his fault. On a good team Jackson would likely have gained slightly more per carry and scored more touchdowns. The argument for Jackson being a HOFer is that he was an elite running back for years - which he was. Was he elite enough, and for long enough? Well, that requires arguments - NOT just statements that he wasn't as good as so and so.

Your arguments don't revolve around Jackson being better...they revolve around what Jackson didn't have.

Look at Harris's peak 3-4 years, Thomas's peak 3-4 years, and Jackson's peak 3-4 years. Jackson loses out.

Steven Jackson(2006, 2009-2011)
62 games
1260 carries
5330 yards
4.2 YPC
28 TDs
229 receptions
1844 yards
4 TDs

Per 16 Games
325 carries
1375 yards
7 TDs
59 receptions
476 yards
1 TD

Thurman Thomas(1989-1992)
63 games
1169 carries
5435 yards
4.6 YPC
33 TDs
229 receptions
2458 yards
16 TDs

Per 16 games
297 carries
1380 yards
8 TDs
58 receptions
624 yards
4 TDs

Franco Harris(1972, 1975-1976, 1979)
57 games
1006 carries
4615 yards
4.6 YPC
45 TDs
108 receptions
836 yards
3 TDs

Per 16 games
282 carries
1295 yards
13 TDs
30 receptions
235 yards
1 TD

Thomas beats him out in every category. Harris is the superior rusher...just carried the ball less. Jackson beats out Harris in receiving but Harris played in a different era in terms of passing.

Steven Jackson was also not an elite HB.

And then, of course, there are accolades:
Jackson
3x Pro Bowl
2x Second Team All Pro

Thomas
5x Pro Bowl
2x First Team All Pro
3x Second Team All Pro
1991 NFL MVP
1992 OPOY
1990s All Decade Team

Harris
9x Pro Bowl
1x First Team All Pro
2x Second Team All Pro
1970s All Decade Team

Jackson doesn't stack up. And if you asked a board of non-Rams fans if Jackson is a HOFer, the overwhelming majority opinion would be no. Jackson was a very good HB for a number of years on a bad team. Lets not inflate his legacy.

And if you brought up players I saw play, I could give you a more accurate breakdown of why they were better players than Jackson rather than just stats.

I'll even compromise with you. We can pull "better" off the board for Harris and Thomas since I wasn't watching football(or around for Harris) when they were in their prime. I'll just simply state that both have greater legacies than Jackson.
 
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Robocop

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Your arguments don't revolve around Jackson being better...they revolve around what Jackson didn't have.

Look at Harris's peak 3-4 years, Thomas's peak 3-4 years, and Jackson's peak 3-4 years. Jackson loses out.

Steven Jackson(2006, 2009-2011)
62 games
1260 carries
5330 yards
4.2 YPC
28 TDs
229 receptions
1844 yards
4 TDs

Per 16 Games
325 carries
1375 yards
7 TDs
59 receptions
476 yards
1 TD

Thurman Thomas(1989-1992)
63 games
1169 carries
5435 yards
4.6 YPC
33 TDs
229 receptions
2458 yards
16 TDs

Per 16 games
297 carries
1380 yards
8 TDs
58 receptions
624 yards
4 TDs

Franco Harris(1972, 1975-1976, 1979)
57 games
1006 carries
4615 yards
4.6 YPC
45 TDs
108 receptions
836 yards
3 TDs

Per 16 games
282 carries
1295 yards
13 TDs
30 receptions
235 yards
1 TD

Thomas beats him out in every category. Harris is the superior rusher...just carried the ball less. Jackson beats out Harris in receiving but Harris played in a different era in terms of passing.

Steven Jackson was also not an elite HB.

And then, of course, there are accolades:
Jackson
3x Pro Bowl
2x Second Team All Pro

Thomas
5x Pro Bowl
2x First Team All Pro
3x Second Team All Pro
1991 NFL MVP
1992 OPOY
1990s All Decade Team

Harris
9x Pro Bowl
1x First Team All Pro
2x Second Team All Pro
1970s All Decade Team

Jackson doesn't stack up. And if you asked a board of non-Rams fans if Jackson is a HOFer, the overwhelming majority opinion would be no. Jackson was a very good HB for a number of years on a bad team. Lets not inflate his legacy.

And if you brought up players I saw play, I could give you a more accurate breakdown of why they were better players than Jackson rather than just stats.

I'll even compromise with you. We can pull "better" off the board for Harris and Thomas since I wasn't watching football(or around for Harris) when they were in their prime. I'll just simply state that both have greater legacies than Jackson.
your argument agains me was it wasnt about numbers! now your tossing out tons of numbers. your just throwing arguments into the wind. stop trying to compare players over 20-30 years ago. Jackson purely had the talent to be a HOFer under better circumstances. Must be nice for Franco to ride that dynasty
 

jrry32

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your argument agains me was it wasnt about numbers! now your tossing out tons of numbers. your just throwing arguments into the wind. Jackson purely had the talent to be a HOFer under better circumstances. Must be nice for Franco to ride that dynasty

I have very little patience for people that don't bother to read what I took the time to write. It's very frustrating.
And if you brought up players I saw play, I could give you a more accurate breakdown of why they were better players than Jackson rather than just stats.

I'll even compromise with you. We can pull "better" off the board for Harris and Thomas since I wasn't watching football(or around for Harris) when they were in their prime. I'll just simply state that both have greater legacies than Jackson.

Frankly, I don't care. You can say Jackson had the talent to be a HOFer...but he's not. And the circumstances aren't the only reason why.

stop trying to compare players over 20-30 years ago.
Oh and FYI, I wasn't the one that brought up Thurman Thomas and Franco Harris. So direct that at someone else.
 
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Robocop

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I have very little patience for people that don't bother to read what I took the time to write. It's very frustrating.


Frankly, I don't care. You can say Jackson had the talent to be a HOFer...but he's not. And the circumstances aren't the only reason why.


Oh and FYI, I wasn't the one that brought up Thurman Thomas and Franco Harris. So direct that at someone else.
his circumstances are very much the exact reason why he won't make the HOF. I cant believe that you dont think he was talented enough to be a HOFer on a better team. thats just completely absurd. and most people don't seem to agree with you anyways. but w/e I give up arguing with a brick wall.
 

jrry32

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his circumstances are very much the exact reason why he won't make the HOF. I cant believe that you dont think he was talented enough to be a HOFer on a better team. thats just completely absurd. and most people don't seem to agree with you anyways. but w/e I give up arguing with a brick wall.

I don't think he was good enough to be a HOFer. I guess if you threw him on a team with the best OL in the NFL and a monstrous offense, he makes the HOF purely based on numbers and longevity. But no, compared to his peers, I don't think he was a good enough HB to make the HOF. There haven't been many HBs enshrined of late. The last 5 modern era HBs have been Curtis Martin(2012), Marshall Faulk(2011), Emmitt Smith(2010), Thurman Thomas(2007), and Barry Sanders(2004). That's 5 in 11 years. And 3 of the 5 are among the top 7 HBs of all time.

So no, with the high standards today for HBs, I don't think Jackson is a HOFer. I don't think he was that level of player. We can bemoan the circumstances but Jackson isn't the only HB to ever face tough circumstances.
 

Robocop

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I don't think he was good enough to be a HOFer. I guess if you threw him on a team with the best OL in the NFL and a monstrous offense, he makes the HOF purely based on numbers and longevity. But no, compared to his peers, I don't think he was a good enough HB to make the HOF. There haven't been many HBs enshrined of late. The last 5 modern era HBs have been Curtis Martin(2012), Marshall Faulk(2011), Emmitt Smith(2010), Thurman Thomas(2007), and Barry Sanders(2004). That's 5 in 11 years. And 3 of the 5 are among the top 7 HBs of all time.

So no, with the high standards today for HBs, I don't think Jackson is a HOFer. I don't think he was that level of player. We can bemoan the circumstances but Jackson isn't the only HB to ever face tough circumstances.
agree to disagree
 

So Ram

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idk how the hell any real Rams fan could call Steven Jackson overrated...
I call BS on that! Take your SJ39 was overrated crap somewhere else. Dude was the ONLY and I mean THE ONLY bright spot on the team we really had and he did what he could. So by your logic Dan Marino and Jim Kelly was crap?
sit down
Jim Kelly went to 4 Super Bowls.

How many playoff games has SJ39 started ? He'll look good in the Ram history books though.
Dan Marino will be in the HOF,so in those terms I guess your right.SJ39 might not be overrated.

I'm just glad the locker room has changed & The Rams have new team leaders.
 

So Ram

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Luck is underrated because of one game? Ryan Fitzpatrick threw 3 TDs in 3 Quarters and led his team back from 21 down to a win in his first game. Guess that made him a future superstar?

Luck is treated like he's an elite QB when the reality is that he's been a solid to good QB thus far in his career that has benefited greatly from playing in the worst division in football. Last year, Sam Bradford had a 121.6 QB Rating against the AFC South and averaged 3 TDs per game. You don't think he'd have benefited greatly from playing 6 games a year against Jacksonville, Tennessee, and Houston instead of San Francisco, Arizona, and Seattle?

Luck is a very talented QB but he's not played to his hype as of yet. But people treat him like he has because his TEAM has won.



Kaepernick is a limited QB that is overly reliant on his athleticism. He had Anquan Boldin, Vernon Davis, and Frank Gore last year...and yet the guy needed to ALSO have Crabtree to "catch fire". He isn't a mentally adept QB. He has a strong arm and great athleticism which allow him to compensate for how slowly he processes things, his poor field vision, and his struggles makings his way through progressions.

Kaepernick is lucky to play on an offense with a stellar supporting cast and stellar coaching. Because he'd be a mediocre or worse QB in most other places.



You do know what Bradford would look like considering he's had a worse supporting cast. I don't know where you're trying to go with this one.

BUT AS I SAID BEFORE, Cam Newton is a freak. He'd do well in St. Louis.



Wilson is the best QB of all the guys you named...excluding Cam Newton. And he's flawed. But he's a cerebral, accurate, patient QB that would play solid football for the Rams. Wouldn't have the numbers he did in Seattle but he'd be good for us.

How did the Rams do against Tennessee at home.I was ready for the #2 pick then. Rams did play real well after that though.

If your just watching Rams games Andrew Luck is one of the worst QB's in the NFL.
At this point I'm ready to see Sam Bradford make the Pro Bowl with Kenny Britt.

I'll take Britt over D.Bowden in KC
 

Robocop

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Jim Kelly went to 4 Super Bowls.

How many playoff games has SJ39 started ? He'll look good in the Ram history books though.
Dan Marino will be in the HOF,so in those terms I guess your right.SJ39 might not be overrated.

I'm just glad the locker room has changed & The Rams have new team leaders.
could you imagine how many more games we wouldve lost without SJ? we wouldve gone down as the worst team in NFL history for many seasons with Jackson carrying the team on his back for many wins. Anyone calling him overrated needs to take a step back and just TRY to imagine the post GSOT years without Jackson.
 

The Rammer

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How many playoff games has SJ39 started ? .

My first at last rebuttal is are you a Rams fan? I'm guessing not or maybe a newer one because if you followed them through the SJ39 days you'd already know the complete piece of %&^* we put onto the field in those days. So answer is 0... which doesn't change the fact he was a beast and IMO in the Rams Ring of Honor
 

jrry32

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How did the Rams do against Tennessee at home.I was ready for the #2 pick then. Rams did play real well after that though.

If your just watching Rams games Andrew Luck is one of the worst QB's in the NFL.
At this point I'm ready to see Sam Bradford make the Pro Bowl with Kenny Britt.

I'll take Britt over D.Bowden in KC

They scored 21 points and nearly won the game despite Kellen Clemens not playing particularly well.
 

So Ram

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They scored 21 points and nearly won the game despite Kellen Clemens not playing particularly well.

Lost at home against a week AFC team.Now it's the team & not the QB ! It's 2014 & it's about what has Sam Bradford done.Never been on an.500 team.
I'm not a Sam Bradford hater.I just think $$$ for $$$$ Bradford has been a lot worse than I would have egged thought to this point.Maybe I was not realistic either.
 

So Ram

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My first at last rebuttal is are you a Rams fan? I'm guessing not or maybe a newer one because if you followed them through the SJ39 days you'd already know the complete piece of %&^* we put onto the field in those days. So answer is 0... which doesn't change the fact he was a beast and IMO in the Rams Ring of Honor
That is my point !!!

Over 40 years as amRam fan easy.Been a NFL fan from the start of Super Bowls...

When SJ38 came in as a Ram RB he did not give Marshall Faulkth respect he deserved.I know when you come in as a Top draft pick & were already in SJ39's mind .Slighted . He had a chip on his shoulder.
SJ39 did have one of the greatest seasons ever in the history of the NFL.That is true.

How many TD's & first downs when it counted did he get.He is an individual player.He is all about SJ39.
Believe me when Fisher came in knew that.SJ39 was never long in this regimes mind.Even with a pay cut.They got nothing for SJ39 in chomp picks either.Still the Rams were winners not taking the option year.
 

So Ram

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could you imagine how many more games we wouldve lost without SJ? we wouldve gone down as the worst team in NFL history for many seasons with Jackson carrying the team on his back for many wins. Anyone calling him overrated needs to take a step back and just TRY to imagine the post GSOT years without Jackson.
It is more like SJ39 with GSOT went to how many playoff games.
Marshall Faulk is underrated .The Rams got him with a 2nd pick & were able to draft T. Holt.
I think Edg. James fall to the Rams if not for that trade.Which I would have liked more than SJ39.
SJ39 was not a willing blocker until Fisher sat him out for D.Richardson.
 

jrry32

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Lost at home against a week AFC team.Now it's the team & not the QB ! It's 2014 & it's about what has Sam Bradford done.Never been on an.500 team.
I'm not a Sam Bradford hater.I just think $$$ for $$$$ Bradford has been a lot worse than I would have egged thought to this point.Maybe I was not realistic either.

Players play, teams win.

Yep, the team lost at home...with a backup QB by a late TD.

What has Sam Bradford done? Well, for one, he's thrown 28 TDs to 11 Ints in his last 16 starts.
 

So Ram

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Players play, teams win.

Yep, the team lost at home...with a backup QB by a late TD.

What has Sam Bradford done? Well, for one, he's thrown 28 TDs to 11 Ints in his last 16 starts.
I can go back to Chris Everett.That's fine and all for a NFL QB.I just think Kap has had a better NFL career to this point.He just got paid huge bank.Bradford is still living off his rookie contract that I don't think he has earned.
--When it's all said and done Bradford maybe in the HOF.He won't do it with his feet.
--I think if a more Mobil QB was on The Rams they might have done better.Kap,Luck,Wilson,Newton. could have done better than Bradford.

Look at the top 100 NFL list voted by players.It's not that hard to fault my opinion.Your case is fine with me.I'm a Rams can.I just want to keep it real,when a Ram fan thinks Bradford is some kind of football God.

I love his quick release.He looks great passing a ball.Kellan Clemens got out of a lot of sacks Sam Bradford would have never got out of.
I think Sam Bradford will benifit from his injury,because of his talent,work ethic,& dedication for the love of the game.
 

jrry32

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I can go back to Chris Everett.That's fine and all for a NFL QB.I just think Kap has had a better NFL career to this point.He just got paid huge bank.Bradford is still living off his rookie contract that I don't think he has earned.

Kaepernick isn't a better player. He's had a "better career" because he's in the perfect spot. One of the NFL's best OLs, a strong running game, excellent coach, top 2-3 defense and solid weapons. Alex Smith looked great there too.

--When it's all said and done Bradford maybe in the HOF.He won't do it with his feet.
--I think if a more Mobil QB was on The Rams they might have done better.Kap,Luck,Wilson,Newton. could have done better than Bradford.

I doubt it. If the Rams did better, it wouldn't be because those guys are mobile. The Rams likely would have been a better squad with Newton and Wilson because of their QBing ability. Luck? Ehh...I don't know. It's close...but he did stay healthy in 2013 so they obviously would have been better than only 7 games of Sam.

I love his quick release.He looks great passing a ball.Kellan Clemens got out of a lot of sacks Sam Bradford would have never got out of.
I think Sam Bradford will benifit from his injury,because of his talent,work ethic,& dedication for the love of the game.

Kellen Clemens also had to escape those sacks because he didn't get rid of the ball as quickly as Bradford would have.

Here's a few interesting stats from PFF:
Pressure%(Percentage of Total Dropbacks Under Pressure)
Kellen Clemens - 36.4%
Sam Bradford - 36.3%

Sack%(Percentage of Plays with Pressure that turned into Sacks)
Kellen Clemens - 21.2%
Sam Bradford - 14.6%

Time to Throw(Average Time the QB Takes to Either an Attempt or Sack)
Kellen Clemens - 2.82s
Sam Bradford - 2.67s

Time to Sack(Average Time in the Pocket from the Snap until the QB is Sacked)
Kellen Clemens - 3.68s
Sam Bradford - 3.47s(3rd quickest behind Tom Brady and Peyton Manning)