Example of Foles missing an easy TD and why we need Quick

[maximus]

No, it's not by design. Which is why Foles's ass is being parked on the bench.

I did not say it was by the design of the offense. What I meant was that Fisher must have told Foles to protect the ball as one of his main priorities. That is what I was trying to say "by design", not that the offense was designed that way, because certainly no offense is ever designed that way.

Foles stats and performance have been hurt by 2 things

1 The GB game, were after a bad beating he started throwing picks left and right. Ended up with 4 picks and 11 rating, which have destroyed his stats.

2 No go to guy on 3rd down. The 3rd down struggles have hurt the offense more than anything. Welker shows up and is instantly by far the best 3rd down receiver, getting open all the time. But Foles had no chemistry with him, when Welker stopped Foles thought he was still running, Foles did not had a good feel for his speed out of the cut. It takes time for the QB and the WR to get on the same page, Foles had no chance after only a few days with Welker and no prior game.

Had Welker been in St Louis since the start of the season, I'm sure the Rams record and Foles' performance would have been much better. More 3rd down conversions would have meant more snaps, more opportunities, more yards, more TDs, more wins.

 

[Rams43]

Know what this kinda reminds me of, maximus?

A former Bradford zealot poster (who shall remain nameless) on 3 different boards.

Loved, no, worshiped Bradford above all else. Nothing was ever Bradford's fault. Ever...

It was always someone else's shortcomings from teammates, coaches, referees, weather, or...

Kinda got old, you know?

There are countless reasons why Foles had to be benched now. You could even call it an intervention. Most everybody can see that.

If you can't, that's okay by me. But I would think you might get tired of pissing into the wind at some point. Lol.

 

[RamFan503]

Geez @maximus You're really dug in here. The very idea that you watched Foles play and saw good QB play is disturbing. Then to have you go into such great depth to defend the awful throws.... pretty amazing. I suppose Fisher benched him due to fan pressure.

I was at the Seattle game and even though it was Foles second best game of the season thus far, he was not hitting anyone that wasn't wide open aside from that one pass to Sted. The AZ game was by far his best of the year and I think it got all of our hopes up.

I think most of us here wanted to see great things from Foles. I think most of us would have been ok with GOOD things from Foles. But we simply didn't get it aside from a few good plays. But if you go back and analyze his throws with just a neutral eye, he has been consistently off. If you look at most of his TD passes, they were delivered to a wide open receiver that had to adjust or wait on the ball. The Kendricks pass for example against the shecocks is an easy pick if the DB doesn't fall down.

We can play the what if game but the fact is that every QB has receivers drop passes. And simply saying that the receivers got their hands on the ball doesn't take into account where the ball was delivered and what the defender was doing. Certainly our receivers have dropped too many passes. But the QB has to make the plays that are there. There are 8 teams with more drops than we have and only one of them has a worse record than ours. And not ONE of them has a lower completion percentage than Foles.

And frankly, saying that Foles wouldn't have known which way a receiver was going to cut is simply funny. There are going to be instances of miscommunication but what the hell do you think these guys are doing in practice? You think Foles gets in the huddle and draws plays on his palm with his finger? Of course he knows where the play is supposed to go. He knows at what marker the receiver is to make his cut, if it's a double move, if the receiver will cut right or left, etc.

And the bottom line - do you really think that Fisher benches Foles if he is playing good football? A player he largely stuck his neck out for in giving him an extension before the season began? If anything, Fish is reluctant to make moves like this. But Fisher - as he's long to do - gave Foles every chance to mesh with his receivers and get the chemistry going. But Foles inaccuracy issues have been going on all year and just continue to get worse. Defenses don't worry about our passing game because they know that aside from a pass or two, Foles simply can't beat their DBs. Instead, teams pin their ears back while stacking the box.

Sorry man but you are practically the only one I have seen defending Foles' ability to throw the rock lately. And those long posts with stills to back up what you are saying are simply ridiculous. Anyone could post stills and say (enter argument here) is what they show. Hate to break it to you but they don't.

 

[RamFan503]

I hope he does. I have never been impressed by Foles but I would be ecstatic to be wrong in this case.

 

[MTRamsFan]

He will play better if the O-Line makes a huge, and I mean HUGE improvement. If he can't trust his O-Line to keep him protected, he will be the next mediocre RAMS QB.

 

[jjab360]

Yes. But there's also no reason he should come back as the unquestioned starter again.

 

[RamDino]

Keenum is not the answer, there is a reason he went 0-8 with the Texans

Keenum was a rookie that was thrown in there with a bad team. I believe he did improve over that time, however, and looked good again last year for the Texans when he went back. He's a little more experienced now.. let's see what he can do. He has all the physical tools, and I am hoping that he can scramble a little bit and give our receivers time to get open. We need to get more aggressive with our short passing game too, and I think some of that is directly related to Fisher being too conservative and afraid of interceptions/turnovers.

 

[maximus]

Keenum was a rookie that was thrown in there with a bad team. I believe he did improve over that time, however, and looked good again last year for the Texans when he went back. He's a little more experienced now.. let's see what he can do. He has all the physical tools, and I am hoping that he can scramble a little bit and give our receivers time to get open. We need to get more aggressive with our short passing game too, and I think some of that is directly related to Fisher being too conservative and afraid of interceptions/turnovers.

He does not have all physical tools, that is for sure. He's short.

I'm looking at the big picture. The big picture is the SB. It's SB or bust. The other picture is that SIZE MATTERS. Last 3 decades, only 2 short QBs have won SBs. Russell Wilson and Drew Brees.

Now Wilson has elite running ability, elite escapability, elite capability of taking numerous hits, Keenum will never be another Wilson.
Drew Brees has amazing accuracy, and even that was not enough. The SB that he won, he needed 2 chokejobs from the opposing QBs to win it. Favre had the game almost won, all he needed to do was run for 5 yards when he had a big open field ahead of him, then kick the FG and win it. But Favre being Favre, he pulled a Favre, instead of gaining those easy 5 yards, he threw a ball across his body for the pick. Epic chokejob.
Then the biggest playoff choker of them all, Peyton Manning, threw a pick 6 late in 4th quarter of the SB when he was driving to tie the game.

I do not believe Keenum will ever be another Drew Brees, having amazing accuracy to overcome his shortness. There is a reason why Kubiak would want to rather get fired that play Keenum. There is a reason Kubiak would rather have the pick 6 machine Schaub starting than Keenum.

I had to laugh when I heard people praising Keenum that he likes to go deep. No kidding. Russell Wilson also likes to go deep. Wanna know why? Being short limits their ability to see over the line, they see the deep field better. That is why Wilson tries so hard to get out of the pocket, he sees the field better when out of the pocket. But teams have caught up with Wilson's tricks, they try to keep him in the pocket, and now his struggles are real.

Keenum is a nice guy, he can win games here and there, but I do not believe he will ever have the amazing accuracy that Drew Brees needed to overcome his shortness. That is why I said, in the long run, he is not the answer.

 

[maximus]

He will play better if the O-Line makes a huge, and I mean HUGE improvement. If he can't trust his O-Line to keep him protected, he will be the next mediocre RAMS QB.

This.

Look at the last 2 TDs he threw against Arizona. The OL was crumbling all around him in both plays, he stood tall in the pocket and delivered 2 great throws to help the team win the game.

Then in the GB game, he took a bad beating around the clock in the first half. He was Marc Burgered and David Carred.
I believe from then on he lost the confidence in the OL, and that affected his play.

 

[maximus]

Geez

We can play the what if game but the fact is that every QB has receivers drop passes. And simply saying that the receivers got their hands on the ball doesn't take into account where the ball was delivered and what the defender was doing. Certainly our receivers have dropped too many passes. But the QB has to make the plays that are there. There are 8 teams with more drops than we have and only one of them has a worse record than ours. And not ONE of them has a lower completion percentage than Foles.

Other teams have go-to guys on 3rd downs. Who was Foles' go-to guy on 3rd downs before Welker showed up? Welker shows up, he is instantly by far the best 3rd down receivers, unfortunately Foles had no chemistry with him.

[QUOTE="RamFan503, post: 667103, member: 35"]Geez [USER=3579]
And frankly, saying that Foles wouldn't have known which way a receiver was going to cut is simply funny. There are going to be instances of miscommunication but what the hell do you think these guys are doing in practice? You think Foles gets in the huddle and draws plays on his palm with his finger? Of course he knows where the play is supposed to go. He knows at what marker the receiver is to make his cut, if it's a double move, if the receiver will cut right or left, etc.
[/QUOTE]

Ever heard of option routes? The moment of the cut is not predetermined, the WR makes the cut at the moment he thinks it's best. The QB does not know the moment, unless he is Tom Brady and can read the mind of the receivers. There is only one Tom Brady. And even him can read the mind of only few receivers, that is why so many receivers have failed in NE.

[QUOTE="RamFan503, post: 667103, member: 35"]Geez [USER=3579]
And the bottom line - do you really think that Fisher benches Foles if he is playing good football? A player he largely stuck his neck out for in giving him an extension before the season began? If anything, Fish is reluctant to make moves like this. But Fisher - as he's long to do - gave Foles every chance to mesh with his receivers and get the chemistry going. But Foles inaccuracy issues have been going on all year and just continue to get worse. Defenses don't worry about our passing game because they know that aside from a pass or two, Foles simply can't beat their DBs. Instead, teams pin their ears back while stacking the box.

Sorry man but you are practically the only one I have seen defending Foles' ability to throw the rock lately. And those long posts with stills to back up what you are saying are simply ridiculous. Anyone could post stills and say (enter argument here) is what they show. Hate to break it to you but they don't.[/QUOTE]

I posted the stills to show that the circumstances of the game set Foles up for fail. Yes, he sailed some throws and threw one into the dirt to Tavon. Almost all sailed throws were to Quick, who missed all training camp, missed the first games, then he was slowly integrated into the offense.

11 drives after the 1st drive TD before the game was over.

- 4 drives killed by OL penalty. On 2 of them the Rams have moved the chains. Do you think it's easy to get out of the hole that the OL holding penalties put the offense in? Chicago had 1 OL holding penalty, Cutler came nowhere near close to getting the 1st down. He was 3-12 on 3rd downs by the way, and he was praised for the game.

- 3 drives killed by Foles and Welker not being of the same page. I posted the stills to show it, when Welker stopped Foles thought he would keep running, then Foles did not had the correct feel for Welker's speed out of his cuts. I also posted the stills to show that Welker was getting open all the time, so Foles was justified in looking for him, but they had no chemistry.

- 1 drive killed by a RB fumble

- 1 drive killed after Tavon did not hold onto the ball.

- 1 drive killed after a sack on 2nd down, no where to throw on 4th down.

That's 10 of the 11 drives. And that's not all.

The D crapped the bed, allowing 21 points to an offense that was shutdown in a whole game by the Seahags.

The running game was non-existent after the 1st drive. And this on an offense which by the words of the coaches, it's run-first, with the run setting up the pass.

With Gurley out of the game, the Bears could focus on defending the pass all game long. The dream of every defense, make the Offense 1-dimensional. It makes defending much easier when you know what is coming.

The Bears could bring pressure with only 4, and dropped 7 into coverage whole game. All their CB were playing very well, as told by Benoit. That severely limited Foles' options of where to go with the ball.


Those are the circumstances of the game. You can call them excuses. I would say these circumstances did set up Foles to fail.


Going to the last games, the one huge problem of the offense was converting on 3rd downs. Who was Foles' go-to guy on 3rd downs before Welker? Look at the guys lighting up the league right now, Brady, Dalton, Cam, combined they have 1 loss. Brady has Gronk, Edelman and Amendola on 3rd downs. Dalton has AJ Green and Eifert. Cam has G Olsen. All of those weapons great and proven options on 3rd down. Who was even close to those weapons on the Rams before Welker?
Rams TEs have been leading the TEs in
Welker shows up, shows everyone how to get it done, gets open all the time on 3rd downs, lives up to his name, but unfortunately Foles is not on the same page with him.

If Welker had been in St Louis since the start on the season, throughout training camp, I'm sure the 3rd down conversions would had been better, the offense would had looked better, Foles would had looked better. Foles got no chance to get the chemistry right with him.[/user][/user]

 

[jrry32]

Ever heard of option routes? The moment of the cut is not predetermined, the WR makes the cut at the moment he thinks it's best. The QB does not know the moment, unless he is Tom Brady and can read the mind of the receivers. There is only one Tom Brady. And even him can read the mind of only few receivers, that is why so many receivers have failed in NE.

That's not really how option routes work. Option routes mean that there is more than one type of route the WR can run on the stem and the route he runs will be based on the coverage by the defense and the positioning of the CB. The moment of the cut is predetermined. Which route he'll run is not predetermined but once it is determined in play, the route is run exactly the way it's drawn up. Which means making the break at the predetermined spot for that specific option.

So there is the possibility that the QB and the WR disconnect (which most people call miscommunication) where the WR reads one thing and the QB reads another leading to the QB throwing to a route that the WR did not run. But if the QB and WR are on the same page on the route being run, the QB knows exactly where the WR will be making his break...if the WR runs the route properly.

You're confusing settling in a zone with option routes. They're somewhat different things.(settling in a zone is an option but this is far from the only type of option routes) In that case, the WR does break off his route at the spot where he think is best. So that does take chemistry with the QB. And you saw on the first throw to Welker from Foles that they weren't on the same page. Welker broke off his route right after clearing the LB. Foles expected him to continue on his route a few more steps. But this is something you practice and work on in meetings. And even then, the WR isn't truly making the cut at the moment he thinks is best. This is something that is still predetermined to an extent.

The difference here is the WR's goal against man coverage and zone coverage. Against man coverage, his goal is to use his route to create separation. Thus, it's extremely important that the WR be precise with his route because the QB needs to get him the ball at a certain depth, spot, and time. Against zone coverage, his goal is to use his route to get into a hole in the zone as quickly as possible. In this case, there's less precision because where you settle will depend on what the defense is giving you. Even still, there's a ton of precision involved because NFL teams use film study and practice to learn the scheme of the defense they're facing and practice settling in zones against those certain looks that the defense gives. Still, this is an area that takes a lot of chemistry and practice reps so that the QB and WR understand each other well enough to know where the WR will settle so the QB can get the ball out on time.

tl;dr version: No, option routes are still predetermined. Against man, they're extremely precise while against zone, they're a bit more fluid. However, a QB will always know which way a WR is supposed to cut and at what depth.

 

[nighttrain]

I'm not going to make any excuses for Foles, who has been terrible, but I suspect the bolded portion above has something to do with coaching and Fisher's MO. In short, while I can understand the emphasis to limit turnovers, the coaching staff seems to be taking it to an extreme.

If you remember when Sam was here, he caught a lot of flak for throwing so many checkdowns, but I suspected at the time that it was Fisher's emphasis on avoiding turnovers that was behind it. Instead of pushing the ball downfield for the possibility of a big play, throw the safe pass, throw it where only the receiver can catch it, etc. That was Sam's game most of the time he was here.

I think now we are seeing the emphasis on limiting turnovers manifest itself with Foles, although in a different way, as you wrote above.

It's really a lousy way to coach QB's, because it puts such an extreme emphasis on avoiding turnovers that they have little room to think about actually making a play. Not surprisingly in that situation, they don't.

hmmmmm, lets see w;hat Case does today before making that call
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[nighttrain]

You can dog Foles for other plays all you want, but not for this one. This one was a timing route. If Foles goes away from Welker and the other guys are not open, by the time he comes back to Welker, the defender is in great position to jump the route for a pick 6.

It did not matter where Foles put the ball, the defender was right there to tackle Welker as soon as he caught it. It was a great play from the defender, they get paid too. Welker stopped the route short 1 yard from the sticks, and that doomed the play. He was stopped 1 yard from the sticks, exactly where he stopped his route. Still shaking out the rust, the Welker of old would know with his eyes closed where the sticks are.

throw was late, Wes made his cut at the 7 yard and had to come back to dive and catch the ball at 10 yard line, hence no first down
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[Memphis Ram]

Don't know if Chris Mortenson is telling the truth or not. But, twice this weekend, I've heard him say that Keenum actually had the better training camp this off-season according to his Rams source(s). He basically said that they just gave Foles the benefit of the doubt due to his being new to the offense and his early August contract extension.:baghead:

 

[nighttrain]

Don't know if Chris Mortenson is telling the truth or not. But, twice this weekend, I've heard him say that Keenum actually had the better training camp this off-season according to his Rams source(s). He basically said that they just gave Foles the benefit of the doubt due to his being new to the offense and his early August contract extension.:baghead:

Figures, a Fisher trafeulgaty(serious scweeup)
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