Ethan Westbrooks is either paying off PFF, or playing very well

[Dodgersrf]

I'm just happy we found another udfa that could contribute this year.
It speaks volumes about his upside, if he is good enough to dress on Sundays with the talent on this line.
I hope he is.

 

[junkman]

We all love Westy and clearly he has earned some snaps come regular season.

But let's keep in mind two things:

1. Sample size is a few preseason games

2. The competition are mostly backups

Westy may be the next big thing or
He may be the next Damione Lewis.

Yep, totally agree!

I'm just happy we found another udfa that could contribute this year.
It speaks volumes about his upside, if he is good enough to dress on Sundays with the talent on this line.
I hope he is.

Yep, that's the spirit!

 

[JackDRams]

I didnt really notice him this week. He didnt record much tho. I'll have to watch it again, too often can a d lineman dominate and you miss it because pressures and hits dont show up on the stat sheet unless they are sacks or tackles.

 

[Irish]

This is the same argument that baseball has been having for the past 20+ years, but really since the advent of the internet. On one side you have the grumpy curmudgeons who adamantly believe that, for example, the only important stats for a pitcher are win loss record, earned run average, and "quality" starts. They completely dismiss things like fielding independent ERA, WHIP, strikeout ratios, and, to a lesser extent WAR. On the other side of the coin are the sabremetricians: the Brian Kennys, Keith Laws, and Joe Sheahans of the world who believe that they, without watching a single game, can lord over a spreadsheet and a computer and a calculator and not only break down the best players in the league, but could build better ball clubs than every single GM in the league.

Both points are valid, but each camp refuses to acknowledge the validity of the other, which causes rifts in the game. Lately, it has impacted Hall of fame voting, with sabremetric aficionados actively arguing against a guy like Frank Thomas in lieu of putting Fred McGriff into this year's hall of fame class. In football, statistics don't mean nearly as much as it is a true team game: baseball is very much an individual game disguised as a team sport. Advanced statistics will be helpful in the future of football as mathematicians and statisticians alike begin to find unique patterns and correlations between the successful as well as the unsuccessful players and what, if any, measurables exist that can be extrapolated to give the individual stats and plays and players and situations more meaning and value. I just hope that when that day comes, football historians and commentators and analysts alike view the introduction of the two as more of a marriage, and not a war of two combatants who are arguing to the same end, but whose arrogance blinds them to the value of the other.

 

[Psycho_X]

I just posted in another forum about this but I think Westbrooks takes Carrington's spot as the DE/DT swingman type role Fisher likes to have. And they keep Sam also as a pure edge rusher. Another possibility is Hayes is on the pup list for the first 6 weeks as we have yet to see him or hear anything about how he is doing from his multiple offseason surgeries. Then after 6 weeks they'd have to make the Carrington, Westbrook, Sam decision for which I still say its Carrington that goes.

 

[mr.stlouis]

I read an article today that Sam may be cut for Westbrtook. I like Sam, but Sims, Hayes, and Westbrook are all better. Do we keep 6 DE's? IDK...

 

[junkman]

I just posted in another forum about this but I think Westbrooks takes Carrington's spot as the DE/DT swingman type role Fisher likes to have. And they keep Sam also as a pure edge rusher. Another possibility is Hayes is on the pup list for the first 6 weeks as we have yet to see him or hear anything about how he is doing from his multiple offseason surgeries. Then after 6 weeks they'd have to make the Carrington, Westbrook, Sam decision for which I still say its Carrington that goes.

Sensible. From where I sit, both Sam and Westbrooks seem like they want it more than Carrington. I like the extra DT depth Carrington offers, but he's just a body in my book. If that's important to Snisher, I'd rather they find some big sloppy body guy on the Saturday waivers who can eat up space on short yardage plays. Carrington's role (designated pass rush DT) was lost the moment Donald was drafted.

 

[junkman]

On one side you have the grumpy curmudgeons.... On the other side of the coin are the sabremetricians

As long as I'm the sabremetics guy and not the curmudgeon, I'll take it!

Even with that, I still have mad respect for CoachO, his experience and all he does! As always. And will never change even when we disagree which it seems we do all the time on this debate of stats. I simply can't do what he does as well as he does it.

 

[Dieter the Brock]

This discussion rocks! thanks for bringing me back from the ledge

 

[CoachO]

I just posted in another forum about this but I think Westbrooks takes Carrington's spot as the DE/DT swingman type role Fisher likes to have. And they keep Sam also as a pure edge rusher. Another possibility is Hayes is on the pup list for the first 6 weeks as we have yet to see him or hear anything about how he is doing from his multiple offseason surgeries. Then after 6 weeks they'd have to make the Carrington, Westbrook, Sam decision for which I still say its Carrington that goes.

Hayes cannot be put on the PUP list. While he hasn't been out there much. He has practiced. IMO, his health could be the deciding factor in them keeping a 10th guy on the DL. I could see it being quite possible that if Hayes isn't 100% they keep both Sam & Westbrooks along with Carrington.

 

[OldRock]

It does show that he is paying well though, right?

Also, I do agree it's suspect not to credit Sam with his two sacks even when they are official. You can't make up your own numbers when they have been made official by the league.

I'm making up one. Brockers had one more sack than the officials gave him last year.

 

[iamme33]

Sensible. From where I sit, both Sam and Westbrooks seem like they want it more than Carrington. I like the extra DT depth Carrington offers, but he's just a body in my book. If that's important to Snisher, I'd rather they find some big sloppy body guy on the Saturday waivers who can eat up space on short yardage plays. Carrington's role (designated pass rush DT) was lost the moment Donald was drafted.

i agree pluss if we keep both and they are as good as they seem right now look what that could do for salary cap

 

[The Rammer]

I for one am not a PFF or stat nerd that doesn't try to create more out of what it is. He's playing lights out (which is a +49.3648 in my book)!

I ate a green chili cheeseburger the other day that was only +.03 compared to the margarita I drank which was a +1.456....geez

 

[Blue and Gold]

"The real point here is that Westbrooks is playing lights out. You don't have to like PFF stats to acknowledge this"

Fish said a few weeks ago there will be 7 "players" who get most of the snaps, with Quinn beng the one who gets the most. Quinn, Long, Brockers, Langford, Hayes, Sims, Donald have to be the 7. The 8th or 9th, I say Westbrooks is ahead of both Carrington and Sam. Sam has played well as an arc rusher or gets up field takes angle an gets to QB. But Westbrook playing with the 1s last week said a lot, filling in for Hayes. Sam didn't play till later, though he was on the goalline defense.

Westbrooks will make the team. Sam MIGHT make team, I will put it that way in my guess.

 

[junkman]

"The real point here is that Westbrooks is playing lights out. You don't have to like PFF stats to acknowledge this"

Fish said a few weeks ago there will be 7 "players" who get most of the snaps, with Quinn beng the one who gets the most. Quinn, Long, Brockers, Langford, Hayes, Sims, Donald have to be the 7. The 8th or 9th, I say Westbrooks is ahead of both Carrington and Sam. Sam has played well as an arc rusher or gets up field takes angle an gets to QB. But Westbrook playing with the 1s last week said a lot, filling in for Hayes. Sam didn't play till later, though he was on the goalline defense.

Westbrooks will make the team. Sam MIGHT make team, I will put it that way in my guess.

I read the same thing about the 7 rotating DL and made note at the time that Carrington was not included in the 7. I'm not sure what Hayes' status is, but if injured, it'd surprise me if Westbrooks did NOT take Hayes slot as one of the 7. I kinda see Westbrooks as next man up (in the 7 man DL rotation) for everyone other than Brockers and Langford.

 

[RaminExile]

I've said before - I'd like both Sam and Westbrooks to make the team but if it becomes a choice between the two of them I'd rather we go with Westbrooks (who would NEVER make it past waivers) because I think he' got more upside. Sam is always going to struggle to overcome his athletic limitations. He's doing a great job doing it now - but I just think Westbrooks has the edge on him.

I wouldn't like to see Carrington cut for him. The guy came here and was generally seen by most as a bit of an unpolished diamond. He's been very, very quiet pre-season admittedly but I think again he's got upside so it'd be a strange one to cut him over an undrafted rookie.

 

[CoachO]

This is the same argument that baseball has been having for the past 20+ years, but really since the advent of the internet. On one side you have the grumpy curmudgeons who adamantly believe that, for example, the only important stats for a pitcher are win loss record, earned run average, and "quality" starts. They completely dismiss things like fielding independent ERA, WHIP, strikeout ratios, and, to a lesser extent WAR. On the other side of the coin are the sabremetricians: the Brian Kennys, Keith Laws, and Joe Sheahans of the world who believe that they, without watching a single game, can lord over a spreadsheet and a computer and a calculator and not only break down the best players in the league, but could build better ball clubs than every single GM in the league.

Both points are valid, but each camp refuses to acknowledge the validity of the other, which causes rifts in the game. Lately, it has impacted Hall of fame voting, with sabremetric aficionados actively arguing against a guy like Frank Thomas in lieu of putting Fred McGriff into this year's hall of fame class. In football, statistics don't mean nearly as much as it is a true team game: baseball is very much an individual game disguised as a team sport. Advanced statistics will be helpful in the future of football as mathematicians and statisticians alike begin to find unique patterns and correlations between the successful as well as the unsuccessful players and what, if any, measurables exist that can be extrapolated to give the individual stats and plays and players and situations more meaning and value. I just hope that when that day comes, football historians and commentators and analysts alike view the introduction of the two as more of a marriage, and not a war of two combatants who are arguing to the same end, but whose arrogance blinds them to the value of the other.

I agree with you to a point that its a similar argument. But the thing about baseball, for the most part, these "stats" are measured of of real numbers. They take the raw data, and have created a whole new set of statistics that were never thought of before,, For example, no one every thought of something like WHIP "back in the day". But its possible to go back and apply a statistical ranking of players long before they used it. For example, if someone were to do the research, applying a WHIP rating to Bob Gibson's or Sandy Koufax' career can be done. That's because it is derived from REAL numbers.

My issue with PFF, they are manufacturing "stats" from subjective grading and then trying to rank players all based off of a subjective set of criteria. If they were generating stats based on REAL actual numbers, such as who's leads the league in avg yards gained on 3rd and 6, then yes, they would be very viable.

But the majority of the rankings for players are compiled from subjective, and not necessarily consistent or accurate data.

 

[CoachO]

"The real point here is that Westbrooks is playing lights out. You don't have to like PFF stats to acknowledge this"

Fish said a few weeks ago there will be 7 "players" who get most of the snaps, with Quinn beng the one who gets the most. Quinn, Long, Brockers, Langford, Hayes, Sims, Donald have to be the 7. The 8th or 9th, I say Westbrooks is ahead of both Carrington and Sam. Sam has played well as an arc rusher or gets up field takes angle an gets to QB. But Westbrook playing with the 1s last week said a lot, filling in for Hayes. Sam didn't play till later, though he was on the goalline defense.

Westbrooks will make the team. Sam MIGHT make team, I will put it that way in my guess.

And Sam played against the "1s" vs. New Orleans,, so what's your point? Sam was the one who was ALL of Hayes' reps prior to the GB game.

It's gonna come down to whether or not they value BOTH of them over Carrington, and more importantly, if Hayes is healthy enough to start the season.

 

[CoachO]

As long as I'm the sabremetics guy and not the curmudgeon, I'll take it!

Even with that, I still have mad respect for CoachO, his experience and all he does! As always. And will never change even when we disagree which it seems we do all the time on this debate of stats. I simply can't do what he does as well as he does it.

I appreciate your comments, and we have had this conversation before. I applaud you for your use of PFF. I just have issues with how they do things.

Too many people consider what they do as gospel, and think what they publish are actual statistics. As I just explained my thoughts in my reply to Irish, I believe that they tend to manufacture these "stats" from a subjective set of criteria. Not REAL measurable numbers. And your example of them discounting a credited sack by Sam is exactly what I am talking about subjectively manufacturing their "statistics".

 

[Blue and Gold]

And Sam played against the "1s" vs. New Orleans,, so what's your point? Sam was the one who was ALL of Hayes' reps prior to the GB game.

It's gonna come down to whether or not they value BOTH of them over Carrington, and more importantly, if Hayes is healthy enough to start the season.

My point is my opinion that Westbrooks has outplayed Sam this preseason, and I don't look at PFF to make that judgment. I've been very critical of them "grading players". Sam did play LDE vs NO, kind of Hayes role, but when they when nickle Hayes would often play LDT and in the NO games, when they went that set Sims was LDT, where Hayes would be. Sam has had a good preseason, but IMO, Westbrooks has been better in all three games. Sam got more PT early in the NO game, then in GB and Cle Westrooks came in early and Sam came in later. That's my point . . .