Cutdown days near for Rams' roster long shots/PD

[CoachO]

You've mentioned a few times that Givens has been getting some private tutoring ,is that an indication of anything to you? I take it to mean they don't intend to give up on the guy because he has that home run in him

I wouldn't call it private tutoring, as much as him coming out early to work on a few things he knows he needs to improve on. Getting off the LOS, refining routes other than just running as fast as he can straight down the field in the hopes that a Safety won't notice him.

How many of those Home Runs did he "hit" last year when he racked up a total of ZERO TD's as a starting WR for 14 of the 16 games?

 

[Thordaddy]

Set a record his rookie year , pick his worst year why dontcha

 

[CoachO]

Set a record his rookie year , pick his worst year why dontcha

he set what rookie record? Are you referring to the FIVE plays he made? And I only have 2 years to pick from. Take those FIVE plays away from his season and what is he left with? his longest reception was 65 yards, so his other 4 50+ catches and that one equal around 275 of his total yardage. Take that off his total, and the rest of his season looks very average (38 catches for 435 yards give or take 11.45 YPC)

So if you to look at it, he has started 25 of the 31 games he has played in, and has a TOTAL of 3 TDs'. And this is the guy you say "can take the top off the defense".....

No thanks!!!!!

 

[-X-]

he set what rookie record? Are you referring to the FIVE plays he made? And I only have 2 years to pick from. Take those FIVE plays away from his season and what is he left with? his longest reception was 65 yards, so his other 4 50+ catches and that one equal around 275 of his total yardage. Take that off his total, and the rest of his season looks very average (38 catches for 435 yards give or take 11.45 YPC)

So if you to look at it, he has started 25 of the 31 games he has played in, and has a TOTAL of 3 TDs'. And this is the guy you say "can take the top off the defense".....

No thanks!!!!!

Man, I don't think I've ever seen you *work* to make a Ram look bad. If I'm honest with you, I'm really not a fan of taking stats away from a player in order to reveal his true mediocrity. You know how many people do that with Bradford. You've seen it. I'll agree that Givens needs more branches on his route tree, but he came onto this team and lit it up after a rather long period of time where no other receiver could do that. Sophomore slumps are real (you know this too), so maybe he regains his form this year and builds upon his inaugural year. Or not. But last year shouldn't be an indictment in as much as an anomaly. At least not until we know better.

 

[iced]

Man, I don't think I've ever seen you *work* to make a Ram look bad. If I'm honest with you, I'm really not a fan of taking stats away from a player in order to reveal his true mediocrity. You know how many people do that with Bradford. You've seen it. I'll agree that Givens needs more branches on his route tree, but he came onto this team and lit it up after a rather long period of time where no other receiver could do that. Sophomore slumps are real (you know this too), so maybe he regains his form this year and builds upon his inaugural year. Or not. But last year shouldn't be an indictment in as much as an anomaly. At least not until we know better.

I don't think Coach is working to make Givens look bad - he's just pointing out the numbers.

Tavon Austin set the rookie record in catches this year @Thordaddy , as the slot receiver who only had 44% of offensive snaps..Givens led the team with 77%, Pettis had 56%... I expect A LOT MORE out of my starting receiver, especially when other receivers around him are getting into the endzone and coming up with better/similar/close numbers on less snaps.

 

[CoachO]

Man, I don't think I've ever seen you *work* to make a Ram look bad. If I'm honest with you, I'm really not a fan of taking stats away from a player in order to reveal his true mediocrity. You know how many people do that with Bradford. You've seen it. I'll agree that Givens needs more branches on his route tree, but he came onto this team and lit it up after a rather long period of time where no other receiver could do that. Sophomore slumps are real (you know this too), so maybe he regains his form this year and builds upon his inaugural year. Or not. But last year shouldn't be an indictment in as much as an anomaly. At least not until we know better.

I am not trying to make him look bad. He doesn't need my he;p in that based on his lack of involvement in training camp this year. I will be the first to admit, I have not been a big fan of his since his first training camp, and last year, didn't surprise me in the least.

I get your point of "taking stats away" from a guys overall year, but in Givens' case, I think it warrants at least a mention. He is lauded for having a "great" rookie season, and came into 2013 viewed as the "#1 WR" this team has needed forever. The only thing I am trying to point out, is he had FIVE dynamic plays in what was an otherwise very average season.

As far as this year, and what he has shown thus far in training camp (and the one OTA I was able to attend) is that he is on the outside looking in, when it comes to reps, and production. I don't think he will get cut either. But I also think his role will be dramatically reduced, and he will be in serious jeopardy once Bailey comes back.

 

[-X-]

I am not trying to make him look bad. He doesn't need my he;p in that based on his lack of involvement in training camp this year. I will be the first to admit, I have not been a big fan of his since his first training camp, and last year, didn't surprise me in the least.

I get your point of "taking stats away" from a guys overall year, but in Givens' case, I think it warrants at least a mention. He is lauded for having a "great" rookie season, and came into 2013 viewed as the "#1 WR" this team has needed forever. The only thing I am trying to point out, is he had FIVE dynamic plays in what was an otherwise very average season.

As far as this year, and what he has shown thus far in training camp (and the one OTA I was able to attend) is that he is on the outside looking in, when it comes to reps, and production. I don't think he will get cut either. But I also think his role will be dramatically reduced, and he will be in serious jeopardy once Bailey comes back.

That's cool. I'm aware that he's slipping down the depth chart with the addition of Britt and Quick's continued development. It just struck a chord with me when you said "take that off his total, and the rest of his season looks very average." The reason he was semi-successful was because he could do the things you're taking away.

So in camp, what would you say looked like his primary weakness? Are his cuts not sharp? Can't dig in? Rounds off his routes? A victim to press?

 

[Pancake]

I'll take the sure hands over straight line speed any day. Pettis makes plays. Throw him the ball and he catches it. Defenders might be able to stay on him but they don't out fight him for a ball ever and his reach actually makes him a little less covered than he looks. Givens has the agility of Trung Canidate and hands of Koren Robinson. Not a good combo.

 

[CoachO]

That's cool. I'm aware that he's slipping down the depth chart with the addition of Britt and Quick's continued development. It just struck a chord with me when you said "take that off his total, and the rest of his season looks very average." The reason he was semi-successful was because he could do the things you're taking away.

So in camp, what would you say looked like his primary weakness? Are his cuts not sharp? Can't dig in? Rounds off his routes? A victim to press?

The biggest thing to me, when I watched Givens in camp, he looks defeated. There were times when they would rotate guys in, and Coach Sherman would yell at him to get in there, or they would call out a personnel grouping, and he just didn't seem interested in joining the fray. Or he would look around like "are you talking to me?" before getting his helmet and going into the huddle.

There were a couple of days, about the second week of camp, where he actually looked like he wanted to be there, and had a few really good practices. But then, he would end up back taking reps with the 3's, and he just didn't look thrilled. For all the heat Pead takes on here for his attitude, what I watched from Givens is far worse.

Then, if you just want to talk about the football aspect, he doesn't show the desire to fight for contested balls. His route tree is limited to about 4 routes. (none of which consist of going over the middle), and he hasn't run by anyone. His targets have been few and far between. Last year at this time, he was "the guy" being targeted I'd say 3 out of 5 passes thrown. This year, it's barely 1 out of 5.

And for all the talk about him coming out early for practice to get the extra "work", it is very non-descript, and mostly walk thru stuff. But I never see him working on the jugs machine, before OR after practice. But yet, Quick, Cook, Harkey, Moe, Reynolds are fixtures EVERY DAY on that machine.

But, from what I hear, he didn't do himself any favors by publicly admitted he didn't work as hard as he needed to coming off his rookie year. It didn't sit well with the powers that be. I know he was trying to say he had "rededicated" himself for this year, but it was not necessarily received that way.

And like I said, this isn't new. This has gone back to the OTA's and carried over to training camp. That being said, I still don't think he will be cut.

 

[-X-]

The biggest thing to me, when I watched Givens in camp, he looks defeated. There were times when they would rotate guys in, and Coach Sherman would yell at him to get in there, or they would call out a personnel grouping, and he just didn't seem interested in joining the fray. Or he would look around like "are you talking to me?" before getting his helmet and going into the huddle.

There were a couple of days, about the second week of camp, where he actually looked like he wanted to be there, and had a few really good practices. But then, he would end up back taking reps with the 3's, and he just didn't look thrilled. For all the heat Pead takes on here for his attitude, what I watched from Givens is far worse.

Then, if you just want to talk about the football aspect, he doesn't show the desire to fight for contested balls. His route tree is limited to about 4 routes. (none of which consist of going over the middle), and he hasn't run by anyone. His targets have been few and far between. Last year at this time, he was "the guy" being targeted I'd say 3 out of 5 passes thrown. This year, it's barely 1 out of 5.

And for all the talk about him coming out early for practice to get the extra "work", it is very non-descript, and mostly walk thru stuff. But I never see him working on the jugs machine, before OR after practice. But yet, Quick, Cook, Harkey, Moe, Reynolds are fixtures EVERY DAY on that machine.

But, from what I hear, he didn't do himself any favors by publicly admitted he didn't work as hard as he needed to coming off his rookie year. It didn't sit well with the powers that be. I know he was trying to say he had "rededicated" himself for this year, but it was not necessarily received that way.

And like I said, this isn't new. This has gone back to the OTA's and carried over to training camp. That being said, I still don't think he will be cut.

Thanks man. Appreciate the insight.
Sounds like he has a bit of a fragile ego.

 

[Memphis Ram]

I don't think Coach is working to make Givens look bad - he's just pointing out the numbers.

Tavon Austin set the rookie record in catches this year @Thordaddy , as the slot receiver who only had 44% of offensive snaps..Givens led the team with 77%, Pettis had 56%... I expect A LOT MORE out of my starting receiver, especially when other receivers around him are getting into the endzone and coming up with better/similar/close numbers on less snaps.

Do we know how often Givens drew the opposing teams top CB vs. the others?

 

[CoachO]

Do we know how often Givens drew the opposing teams top CB vs. the others?

I don't think that applies very often. Other than Arizona, who did indeed put Petersen on him, and a Safety over the top, most teams play strictly and RCB and LCB vs. the Rams. Seattle doesn't assign Sherman to cover one particular receiver, neither does SF.

The biggest issue Givens had, IMO, teams always made sure they had a safety over the top of him, so he was facing bracketed coverage. And with him limited route tree. he is easily taken out of the game. That they had no one else who could draw coverage away from him, it only compounded his issue.

 

[iced]

I don't think that applies very often. Other than Arizona, who did indeed put Petersen on him, and a Safety over the top, most teams play strictly and RCB and LCB vs. the Rams. Seattle doesn't assign Sherman to cover one particular receiver, neither does SF.

The biggest issue Givens had, IMO, teams always made sure they had a safety over the top of him, so he was facing bracketed coverage. And with him limited route tree. he is easily taken out of the game. That they had no one else who could draw coverage away from him, it only compounded his issue.

I actually remember watching several times, including the panther and week 1 cardinal game, the safety was rolling over to Austin when he was on the field - not so much givens.

But the fact that Givens has fallen down the depth chart and is on the outside looking tells me the coaching staff his lack of production too

 

[CoachO]

I actually remember watching several times, including the panther and week 1 cardinal game, the safety was rolling over to Austin when he was on the field - not so much givens.

But the fact that Givens has fallen down the depth chart and is on the outside looking tells me the coaching staff his lack of production too

In the Arizona game, if memory serves me, they had Petersen on Givens, with a safety over the top, and Mathieu on Austin, with the other Safety bracketing him. Which is why Cook was isolated on a LB most of the day.

By the time the Carolina game came around, Quick was getting as many if not more reps than Givens, so that kinda cancels that out. Austin was by then, our "leading receiver" so it made sense to roll coverage his way. Which only makes the point of Givens not being a factor even more pronounced.

 

[Memphis Ram]

I don't think that applies very often. Other than Arizona, who did indeed put Petersen on him, and a Safety over the top, most teams play strictly and RCB and LCB vs. the Rams. Seattle doesn't assign Sherman to cover one particular receiver, neither does SF.

The biggest issue Givens had, IMO, teams always made sure they had a safety over the top of him, so he was facing bracketed coverage. And with him limited route tree. he is easily taken out of the game. That they had no one else who could draw coverage away from him, it only compounded his issue.

Seems to me that if could draw such coverage, it gives him value (and helps his cause) now that the team has players elsewhere (hopefully) that can make plays if this occurs in 2014.

 

[CoachO]

Seems to me that if could draw such coverage, it helps his cause now that the team has players elsewhere (hopefully) that can make plays if this occurs in 2014.

I don't disagree, but it doesn't look like he's gonna see the field. Unless somehow, he leapfrogs Britt, Quick, Austin and Bailey. Every one of them brings more to the mix than Givens, IMO. Aside from the straight line speed, what facet of his game is better than the others mentioned?

 

[LACHAMP46]

How does JT "know" we'll only keep 9 OL's or whatever number per position?

 

[kurtfaulk]

I don't disagree, but it doesn't look like he's gonna see the field. Unless somehow, he leapfrogs Britt, Quick, Austin and Bailey. Every one of them brings more to the mix than Givens, IMO. Aside from the straight line speed, what facet of his game is better than the others mentioned?

for all the talk about his speed he sure did get caught from behind alot. i want to see plenty of 2 TE sets and let either britt or quick make the big play. this helps the run game and passing game as defenses shouldn't know if you're running or passing.

.

 

[Memphis Ram]

I don't disagree, but it doesn't look like he's gonna see the field. Unless somehow, he leapfrogs Britt, Quick, Austin and Bailey. Every one of them brings more to the mix than Givens, IMO. Aside from the straight line speed, what facet of his game is better than the others mentioned?

Perhaps he plays a Devery Henderson (Saints) role. And I, too, hope Britt won't be as injury prone on his new team.

 

[iced]

In the Arizona game, if memory serves me, they had Petersen on Givens, with a safety over the top, and Mathieu on Austin, with the other Safety bracketing him. Which is why Cook was isolated on a LB most of the day.

By the time the Carolina game came around, Quick was getting as many if not more reps than Givens, so that kinda cancels that out. Austin was by then, our "leading receiver" so it made sense to roll coverage his way. Which only makes the point of Givens not being a factor even more pronounced.

there's a few plays i remember where the safety was waiting on austin to go deep - i'd go back and look but i'd rather see what they do tonight and next week lol.

I still think it only speaks to more of Givens' ceiling or talents that Pettis and Austin were just as productive, if not more per snap, on significantly less snaps than Givens... 30'ish catches for my #1 guy is just unacceptable in my book - and that's not even including his touchdown abstinence