coaches with 4 straight non winning seasons to start tenure

[fearsomefour]

Good discussion.
It is interesting to look at things from a "managerial" point of view. Developing culture, vision and direction is not an easy thing.

Sorry but Fisher IMO was not brought in to simply draft and sign his guys. He was brought in to orchestrate a new long term approach that brings about sustainability.
Do we think Arians is going to lead the Tards to the Superbowl

I agree about Fisher being chosen to lead in a long term change. I have said many times teams that experience long term success (Steelers, Packers, Pats, NYG) have consistent leadership. I like Snead in the FO. The difference in the draft (not arguing specific picks) in terms of having a plan and executing said plan has been refreshing. The use of cap dollars and how contracts have been set up has been wise in that money is coming free just as the glut of draft picks come into free agency. The youth movement with O line reflects this as well. Looking to build an identity. There is a reason Pittsburgh's D is very consistent. Even this year they have been better than expected overall. They have very short stints of being a bad D. One big reason is they know how to draft "their" guys. They can find those pass rushing 3/4 OLBs others struggle to find. You can see the same thing in NE and GB with players.
So, to me, I am keeping Fisher. The movement to building a consistently competitive team....the old fashioned way....through draft and patience and developing an identity....is well on the way. When a rebuilding of a franchise in undertaken (not a simple overhaul to a total rebuild nearly) it may take 3 years, it may take 6. To suddenly change direction now because a couple of pieces are lagging behind would be a big mistake in my humble opinion.
As for Arians....yeah, he could very well lead Arizona to a Super Bowl. Although that has a lot more to do with Palmer than Arians in my opinion. Look how smart Ken W looked when he had Warner running the O.
If the Rams can keep their D together through FA that side of the ball has been rebuilt. I think the O line has been addressed long term despite the current state of injury. With Robinson, Havenstein, Battle, Williams, Saffold, Brown, Wichmann, Donnal and Barnes the chance of finding a very good starting 5 that stays together for a good stretch is high. I like the approach the FO took toward the O line this offseason. The youth movement is looking to long term success, not immediate short term gain.
The crux is finding a franchise QB. That is a tough one as we all know. Maybe the toughest thing to find in all of sports. I for one would like to see the team spread a wide net. The rest of this season to me should be about determining if Foles or Keenum is worth keeping to be part of a QB competition next year.
I still believe the team is not far away.
I am keeping Fisher.

 

[dieterbrock]

I agree about Fisher being chosen to lead in a long term change. I have said many times teams that experience long term success (Steelers, Packers, Pats, NYG) have consistent leadership.

The only flaw in this thinking though is when you look at NE, they had 4 coaches between Berry and Belechick, packers had 2 coaches in 6 years between Holmgren and Mcarthy and the Giants had 3 coaches between parcels and coughlin. So when did these teams decide to fish or cut bait? I see the Giants as an example of sticking with a guy but they fired Jim Fassel who did more than Fisher.

 

[snackdaddy]

I know Stan K. hired Fisher with the idea that he could bring long term stability to the team. Plus, if they do move Fisher has experience going through that. Don't know if that played into the decision at the time he was hired. And Fisher has raised them from a bottom tier team to almost middle of the pack.

But can he get them past that 6 or 7 win plateau? I have my doubts. He'll keep them competitive with solid defenses. But his offensive philosophy is outdated. Power running with substandard quarterback play won't get you on the plus side of .500. And it definitely won't get you to the playoffs.

Yeah, we're better than we were before he arrived. But from what I see, fans aren't satisfied with the win 2 lose 3 thing we've been saddled with under Fisher. Eventually fans want more than he can offer.

 

[Ramhusker]

Wait, ain't ain't a word??????

 

[Stranger]

To suddenly change direction now because a couple of pieces are lagging behind would be a big mistake in my humble opinion.

I think you're overall post is well reasoned. However, I'd disagree with the above assessment - I don't view the Offense as just "lagging behind". I believe we've see a consistent ineptitude on offensive that points to Fisher's [lack of] understanding of offensive systems, an inability to identify the right kind of talent at QB (ie Henley), and an unwillingness to secure a top tier OC. My problem with Fisher over the last 2-seasons is that I don't see him changing. And if he doesn't change, then I don't see our offense improving beyond the bottom-third
I don't even know what cockeyed flumdummery is.

 

[fearsomefour]

I think you're overall post is well reasoned. However, I'd disagree with the above assessment - I don't view the Offense as just "lagging behind". I believe we've see a consistent ineptitude on offensive that points to Fisher's [lack of] understanding of offensive systems, an inability to identify the right kind of talent at QB (ie Henley), and an unwillingness to secure a top tier OC. My problem with Fisher over the last 2-seasons is that I don't see him changing. And if he doesn't change, then I don't see our offense improving beyond the bottom-third

I don't even know what cockeyed flumdummery is.

You may very well be right about Fisher and the O. A lot of times with age we tend to become a little more humble. Maybe this happens with Fisher, maybe not. Although, I don't understand how a person could not see the results on the field. The failures are what they are. Ideally a good OC would be brought in and allowed to run that side of the ball....is that likely without Vermeilinish pressure being placed on the HC by ownership....probably not.

 

[rdlkgliders]

@fearsomefour I agree in most part with your assessment. The problem with the O beyond the questionable philosophical approach is that everything that has gone wrong are things that most of us on this forum tagged as concerns. No you can't expect to have this level of injuries again on the OL (aside from softold) The QB,WR and Ol depth and youth are concerns that have been adamantly expressed for in excess of a season. h We must give credit to Jeff Snish for the drafting of TG30. One may say though that the lack of commitment to even the RB position could be a concern being that we had previously drafted I Pead, Z Stacy and T Mason in an attempt to find a viable starter using valuable draft picks. D rich was a freebee so I didn't include him and really I am not expressing dissatisfaction with the way we addressed the RB but merely pointing out both the approach and steps involved to finally find success. You might say that we are beginning to do the same with the QB position that we did with RB. Last year Gilbert this year Mannion and eventually we will probably need a first to get a starter now obviously you only have so many high picks and we had many needs but we used a lot of assets to finally land a dependable RB and we seem to be taking the same approach with the QB. There are many variables and it is easy to be critical from our sofa's but at the end of the day our O is a mess from protection to the playcaller and at the receiver position, bad luck? skewed philosophy? you be the judge. I love the stability of a consistent staff but am concerned about the commitment and approach to our O.

 

[Stranger]

I love the stability of a consistent staff but am concerned about the commitment and approach to our O.

Just about sums everything up right there.

 

[LesBaker]

Not entirely unrelated to the OP's point, but ..

Why would a coach like Belichick look crappy in Cleveland?
Or Parcells in Dallas/NYJ?
Or Seifert in Carolina?
Or Shanahan in Washington?
Why is Coughlin on his 4th non-winning season in 7 years?

There are MULTIPLE Super Bowl Titles between those guys, and yet there are times where they couldn't get out of their own way and/or failed miserably.
Did they forget how to coach in certain years? Did Fisher get lucky when he went to the SB or did he luck his way into 13 wins in 2008?

OR. Could it be that sometimes you just need the right breaks and the right players?
And could it be that sometimes those plans just go to crap for reasons outside of your control?

I think it's funny how many people say "Fisher doesn't know offense" and "he's restricting the playcalling".

It's just silly.

Things were looking good. Then the injuries to the OL started and didn't stop.

We need an OL and a QB. And actually if we get the OLI am of the opinion that Foles is plenty capable of performing very well, not average but very well.

I've seen some still photos posters have used to p[oint out Foles "missing wide open WR's" and in almost every case he is going to a target because he has to get rid of the ball quickly.

Fix the OL and the team probably contends for the division and most likely earns a wildcard spot.

But what the fuck lets blow it all up after putting this much effort into it and start all over.

EDIT:
Did anyone notice what happened to Gurley's production by the way........it is the OL.

 

[rdlkgliders]

@LesBaker
Absolutely the OL is the main culprit.
IMO your production on either side of the ball starts at the LOS.
I would definitely not say he doesn't know offense nor would I say that he restricts play canlling.
I do believe he has great influence on our offensive philosophy and would be very hesitant in agreeing that the offense was performing well prior to the injury bug.
Yes most NFLQB's are serviceable or better behind quality OL play and I was of the belief that Foles would be better than average in that situation. It doesn't seem as though as pf late that Nick has been himself irrespective of the OL play.