Case Keenum 3-1

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RAMpage28

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Come on Champ!

Warner brought us the Super Bowl! (Undrafted)

Bulger did some great things in St Louis (6th round pick)

then we have:

Bradford brought us tears (1st pick)

Banks no need to say more (2nd round pick)

Who gives a flying f where they were drafted. Especially if you're a Ram fan

So a couple times late to undrafted guys worked out for us and a couple times high round investments didn't pan out as well. That means that's the way it's going to be everytime? These late and undrafted guys are a rarity compared to the number of higher picked players. High round investment isn't a "cure all" as you think I claimed. The point is that when you pick high or pick at all, it's about getting the right guy and you are more likely to get that guy when he's still around, not when he was taken 6 rounds ago and now you're hoping that somehow there is still a guy out there.
 

jrry32

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I do hope you are right. For a somewhat similar situation see Mark Sanchez in 2013. Jets didn't cut Sanchez who had played terribly because he was owed $8.25M in guarantied money.

And that's why they're the Jets. But they were also in a different situation and didn't need to release Sanchez to open up a roster spot for a new QB. Plus, they did put him on IR which accomplished the same thing.
 

RAMpage28

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I'm hearing a lot of "Well, give Keenum a whole offseason and some new guys around and and he'll develop!" Will he? On paper, yes, that is 100% true. In reality, he actually may not progress much or stay relatively the same. Take GRob for example. He's a young guy that's shown some promise in his career and a lot of rough spots too. Think back to the beginning of the season. You bring in Reynolds, a veteran presence, stick another vet in Saffold next to him, give him another year, and BAM! There it is! He should be a much better player! He didn't progress that much and or he stayed the same. You can point to injuries and all, but who's to say Keenum can't get affected by anything similar.

GRob not a fair comparison? How about Sanchez? He got good weapons and talent and he didn't progress. He was a much better prospect than Keenum is and he didn't develop as expected. Sometimes guys just don't develop as expected. I mean, I want to know, what exactly is expected with a year longer in the system and more weapons? What level will he develop to if all things go right? What are the chances that this dude has been bounced between 2 teams, three different coaching staffs, and is just now going to put it all together? Maybe all Case needs is a shot. Maybe. I'm not willing to just give him that shot without having a really good answer to the same position.

Some people seem to see these wins and think "well it's going good now, I bet things will stay good". That's not exactly the case. That's not pessimism talking, that's just not letting the emotions of winning get in the way of looking at this player. It's really much harder to predict progression of a player than it seems. Just because it would make sense for him to get better doesn't mean he will or get better to the point he needs to. I appreciate the wins, I do, but I see Keenum staying in the role he has now.
 

RamDino

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I have an idea. Let's wait until Sunday before we cut or anoint Case Keenum. I'm just enjoying the ride right now, and it feels pretty good.
 

maddogmrb

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Case had eight games as a starter in Houston in 2013. A nightmare season where Kubiak had a "mini-stroke" and they went 2-14. Case had an effective 1-2 backfield with Ben Taint and Foster along with a still productive Andre Johnson and a rookie DeAndre Hopkins and went 0-8 with a 54% completion rate 9-6 TD:INT and about 1700 yards. Add in pro-bowl left tackle Duane Brown and a high quality center (even into his advanced age) in Chris Meyers and you possibly got a better overall supporting cast than the current Rams. I know it was two years ago but he wasn't very impressive back then so I find it hard to place faith in him.

.

Actually, in those 8 games the team had already given up on the season. Ben Taint and Arian Foster were BOTH injured for 5 of the 8 games and Andre Johnson was injured for 2 of them. BTW, Andre Johnson's best games in the past 5 seasons have come with Case at QB. The oline was a joke at both guards and right tackle and they had no TE. You guys think GR is not good, the guy the Texans had at RT was like the invisible man. You can also check the stats on the defense and special teams ... they were pathetic during that 8 game stretch and the coaching staff was doing a terrible job of game planning and adjustments. It was just a bad situation.

For those of you pointing to Case's only having 103 yards passing, or whatever it was, you have to understand again that the coaching staff calls the plays, not Case. Why does the coaching staff call so many short, conservative passing plays? Because the oline is inexperienced and still learning ... in other words, they don't know how to pass block in the NFL, so whoever is QB has to run a short, conservative passing game in order to give the team a chance. Also, as YOU well know, the Rams receivers are not even NFL average and drop way too many balls and just don't get open a large % of the time.

IF you take the time to review Case's game films, you will see he can make all the throws ... Fisher has said so himself. With more experience in the oline and a couple of much better receivers, you will see more of a downfield passing game which Case excels at. Of course, someone has to convince Fisher to implement a more aggressive passing game, too.
 

jrry32

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Actually, in those 8 games the team had already given up on the season. Ben Taint and Arian Foster were BOTH injured for 5 of the 8 games and Andre Johnson was injured for 2 of them. BTW, Andre Johnson's best games in the past 5 seasons have come with Case at QB. The oline was a joke at both guards and right tackle and they had no TE. You guys think GR is not good, the guy the Texans had at RT was like the invisible man. You can also check the stats on the defense and special teams ... they were pathetic during that 8 game stretch and the coaching staff was doing a terrible job of game planning and adjustments. It was just a bad situation.

Brandon Brooks and Wade Smith were "jokes" at OG and Derek Newton was an "invisible man" at RT? Come on. Wade Smith wasn't a quality OG at that point due to age and decline but he wasn't a total bum either. Brandon Brooks was definitely not a joke. Newton? Not a good pass protector but not nearly as terrible as you're claiming.

For those of you pointing to Case's only having 103 yards passing, or whatever it was, you have to understand again that the coaching staff calls the plays, not Case. Why does the coaching staff call so many short, conservative passing plays? Because the oline is inexperienced and still learning ... in other words, they don't know how to pass block in the NFL, so whoever is QB has to run a short, conservative passing game in order to give the team a chance. Also, as YOU well know, the Rams receivers are not even NFL average and drop way too many balls and just don't get open a large % of the time.

Yet, he received quality pass protection against Seattle.
 

Dieter the Brock

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So a couple times late to undrafted guys worked out for us and a couple times high round investments didn't pan out as well. That means that's the way it's going to be everytime? These late and undrafted guys are a rarity compared to the number of higher picked players. High round investment isn't a "cure all" as you think I claimed. The point is that when you pick high or pick at all, it's about getting the right guy and you are more likely to get that guy when he's still around, not when he was taken 6 rounds ago and now you're hoping that somehow there is still a guy out there.

I get that

And I'm not disagreeing on the idea of taking a top quarterback -- and I know you guys aren't saying Keenum isn't doing a good job at helping us win.

Again I think taking a QB anywhere is the riskiest pick you can make because, as you say, there are so few that can really help lead a team to the Championship,

And I agree with you all that taking a 1st or 2nd on a QB this year would be a great idea

But - some may not remember like I do how Sean Mannion was being touted as a first round pick the year he had Brandon Cook and those other weapons - bit after a not so great season he was downgraded severely.

This year Cardale Jones is a perfect example of Mannion last year. Big kid, strong arm, can move decent - but needs development -- last year after winning the national championship he would have been a 1st round pick - but know everyone second guesses him returning to school.

Now I'd take Cardale Jones in a heart beat with that extra second pick - everyone will say I'm nuts but why? He has all the tools. Huge arm, size, can move in the pocket, is a pocket QB etc, and of course he needs to get smarter etc..

You know who else looks great in paper - Sean Mannion.

So yeah, let's look forward to the future but let's be realistic knowing that even if we select Goff #1, it doesn't mean he'll be anymore successful than Sam was

I don't believe any one of the QB's available this year - even if selected - will be our starter come 2016.

Keenum is winning and I look at him and I see a guy who wants to win - with a college pedigree to boot - he plays tough with heart and will grind out that win regardless / he fits the personality of this team well until, as you and I all agree, our Savior at QB comes walking through the halls.
 
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maddogmrb

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Brandon Brooks and Wade Smith were "jokes" at OG and Derek Newton was an "invisible man" at RT? Come on. Wade Smith wasn't a quality OG at that point due to age and decline but he wasn't a total bum either. Brandon Brooks was definitely not a joke. Newton? Not a good pass protector but not nearly as terrible as you're claiming.



Yet, he received quality pass protection against Seattle.

Wade Smith and Brandon Brooks were BOTH injured and they had other guys in there. Newton was TERRIBLE, TERRIBLE, TERRIBLE. Check the films. You said, "Yet, he received quality pass protection against Seattle". He did because the GAME PLAN was to throw very short, quick passes to compensate for the olines inexperience against an excellent defense.
 

RAMpage28

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Actually, in those 8 games the team had already given up on the season. Ben Taint and Arian Foster were BOTH injured for 5 of the 8 games and Andre Johnson was injured for 2 of them. BTW, Andre Johnson's best games in the past 5 seasons have come with Case at QB. The oline was a joke at both guards and right tackle and they had no TE. You guys think GR is not good, the guy the Texans had at RT was like the invisible man. You can also check the stats on the defense and special teams ... they were pathetic during that 8 game stretch and the coaching staff was doing a terrible job of game planning and adjustments. It was just a bad situation.

For those of you pointing to Case's only having 103 yards passing, or whatever it was, you have to understand again that the coaching staff calls the plays, not Case. Why does the coaching staff call so many short, conservative passing plays? Because the oline is inexperienced and still learning ... in other words, they don't know how to pass block in the NFL, so whoever is QB has to run a short, conservative passing game in order to give the team a chance. Also, as YOU well know, the Rams receivers are not even NFL average and drop way too many balls and just don't get open a large % of the time.

IF you take the time to review Case's game films, you will see he can make all the throws ... Fisher has said so himself. With more experience in the oline and a couple of much better receivers, you will see more of a downfield passing game which Case excels at. Of course, someone has to convince Fisher to implement a more aggressive passing game, too.

According to pro football reference, there is no way both Taint and Foster were out for 5 of those eight. Taint started 7 games and played in 14 of them. Foster had eight starts and 8 games played, so maybe Foster wasn't there, but it sure seems Taint was. Also, where was Andre injured for two of them? Maybe, but that means he played through it because both ESPN and Pro football reference say he started and played all 16. You sure about Andres best GAMES in the past FIVE seasons? His best game, singular, ever may have come against indy that year with over two hundred yards and 3 TDs, but that's one game. The year before with Schaub he had a 273 yard performance with a score. The most yardage he ever had in a game. That same year had a 188 performance as well, better than any of the other performances from 2013. It's not like Schaub was no joke and Andre suddenly became even more of a probowl talent with Keenum at the helm.

The oline was a joke and he had no TE so they let him chuck the deep ball and rack up stats while the Rams call it conservative with their poor pass blocking o-line and force Case into short throws? I get the Texans still had Dre and Hopkins as a rookie, but that seems a contradictory to me. I know that Texans line wasn't great, but they had a couple of great pieces.

Fisher says he can make all the throws? What else would he say? Not saying he's lying, but it's not like he can say much more than that.
 

Athos

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Mannion does not look good on paper outside of a year where Cooks went off.
 

LesBaker

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I remember that game very well. Brock completed TWO passes the previous week against Dallas. Dickerson got the Rams there, not Brock. And he was gone in 86. Kemp should have started that game, by the way.

It was 6, I just looked LOL. It isn't very often a QB goes 6-22 for 50 yards and an INT and gets to the next round of the playoffs.

If he got any bonus money for winning that game I hope he gave it to Dickerson who had a TD run that was 5 yards longer than all the work Brock did all damn day hahaha.
 

LesBaker

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Maybe. My only issue is...maybe we win 1 or 2 more games that we didn't win but do we still beat the Cardinals? Foles made some pretty major plays in that game.

He did at hoem in week one too against a good SEA defense.

The OL crushed any hopes of going anywhere soon after AZ though.....
 

RAMpage28

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LesBaker

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I posted my proof of pretty much nearly every playoff QB and every QB in the top 25 being a 1st rounder or an early to mid 2nd.

Sorry if that doesn't jive with your illusions of 3rd round QBs meaning much.

Guys like Brady are the exception to the rule. Finding long term QB solidarity from a kid that wasn't a first rounder is playing Russian Roulette. The odds are far worse than a QB from the first amounting to much. That's just the history of the NFL speaking for the last several years if not decades.

The QBs worth taking usually go early because it's damn hard to find them and you don't want to pass when you do. The bust rate is high as hell because the position is hard. It just is.

I'm glad Keenum HELPED us get a win I. hagville. We all hate the crap out of that team and fan base. But let's not blow one game out of proportion or think we have any answers at the QB position.

Say we make Keenum the starter next year right now and he pulls a Foles, rookie or rookies we pass on pull a Carr by year two, and we are once again stuck with our dicks in our hands at the altar for a bride that never shows up

I've heard people say the hardest thing to do in pro sports is hit a baseball or hit a golfball.

I laugh and ask if they have ever watched the NFL. The hardest thing to do in pro sports in play QB, nothing else is even in the conversation as far as I'm concerned.

@Athos we had a little heated back and forth re:Bradford and I hope the dust up is behind us. We're cool on my end all day long.
 

Dieter the Brock

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Mannion does not look good on paper outside of a year where Cooks went off.

Right - and when he had Cooks he was considered a 1st round pick.

And yet despite that horrible year, Snead and Fisher selected him with a 3rd which tells you a lot
 

Athos

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Right - and when he had Cooks he was considered a 1st round pick.

And yet despite that horrible year, Snead and Fisher selected him with a 3rd which tells you a lot

:ROFLMAO:

Sorry my man. When it comes to Snisher selecting offensive talent it doesn't mean a whole helluva lot.

You walked right into that one.
 

Dieter the Brock

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:ROFLMAO:

Sorry my man. When it comes to Snisher selecting offensive talent it doesn't mean a whole helluva lot.

You walked right into that one.

No man that's what I'm trying to say !!!
When it comes to this Rams regime and drafting the QB position

You are going to be really disappointed when they skip picking Goff or Lynch or whomever for that CB or WR

All signs point to Keenum, Mannion, and Foles in 2016

* Snead drafted this years Rookie of the Year in Gurley and we have our right Tackle and right Guard of the future, so I know they know a little something about picking offense

QB - it is what it is
 

SuperMan28

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So a couple times late to undrafted guys worked out for us and a couple times high round investments didn't pan out as well. That means that's the way it's going to be everytime? These late and undrafted guys are a rarity compared to the number of higher picked players. High round investment isn't a "cure all" as you think I claimed. The point is that when you pick high or pick at all, it's about getting the right guy and you are more likely to get that guy when he's still around, not when he was taken 6 rounds ago and now you're hoping that somehow there is still a guy out there.

Dude, you make it sound like this took place in a short amount of time. That's been the last two decades in a nut shell.
 

RAMpage28

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Dude, you make it sound like this took place in a short amount of time. That's been the last two decades in a nut shell.

In the last two decades we got a total of two higher round QBs, one which was a mixed result in Bradford and the other a bust in Banks. Then we find Warner out of nowhere and win a superbowl and a six rounder in Bulger (who I think is/was a solid QB and don't mean to totally disrespect with this following statement) rides off of a great offensive team and looks pretty good before historic failure for 10 years. That doesn't mean that the undrafted and late round route is historically better. It doesn't change that in this league the majority of quality QBs are taken early.

The Rams haven't hit it exactly well with their last two high end QB picks, but that doesn't mean that it's the wrong way to go or that they have should look for later round guys more than early round. If you're going to be afraid to take a position you need high in the draft because it didn't exactly go the way you thought it would in the past, then I feel like you're more likely to struggle to find what you need. Kurt (and to a lesser degree Bulger) are great stories of success when it comes to late and undrafted QBs, but they aren't common at all. Kinda part of the reason they are great success stories. I fell that you're going to spend more time looking for an answer when you are looking for them after the picks of the litter have already been taken.

In the past two decades the Rams have had in QB hell, how many of these undrafted and late round guys have gone on to be franchise type guys for their teams compared to the number of higher round guys that have become franchise QBs? I'm sure there are more day one and day two picks that have outperformed day 3 and undrafted guys.