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Bountygate

Discussion in 'RAMS - NFL TALK' started by bluecoconuts, Mar 2, 2012.

  1. joeybittick Well-Known Member

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    Tipsheet: Did Rams hire an outlaw coordinator?

    Tipsheet: Did Rams hire an outlaw coordinator?

    BY JEFF GORDON | Posted: Monday, March 5, 2012 6:03 am | No Comments Posted

    New Rams defensive coordinator Gregg Williams will meet with NFL commissioner Roger Goodell today. Odds are it won’t be a pleasant chit-chat.

    That bounty system Williams administered in New Orleans? Yeah, Roger is not real happy about that. And word out of Washington says he did the same thing in Washington.

    Suddenly, Williams has an renegade image that the late Al Davis would admire. Tipsheet expects Jeff Fisher to stand by his man, but heavy turbulence looms.

    National media types have dug into this issue with their teeth and they aren’t letting go. Here is what some of them have been writing about this topic:

    Gary Myers, New York Daily News: “It’s supposed to be a fraternity of 1,800 of the world’s greatest athletes who understand the physical beating they all go through every Sunday just to get back on the field the next Sunday and then stay on the field. There is a camaraderie, a bond, and most of all a respect that develops between NFL players, regardless of what uniform they’re wearing, just because it’s an accomplishment to survive the collision sport and have a long career. Play hard. Play clean. When players walk off the field after a game, the last thing they say to each other is, ‘Stay healthy.’ As it turns out, they all don’t mean it, especially those who play for former Saints defensive coordinator Gregg Williams, who should be thrown out of the NFL for life by Roger Goodell. He was financially motivating players to hurt players. It doesn’t get worse than that.”

    Greg Cote, Miami Herald: “The past three years the New Orleans Saints have had an illegal bounty program in which defensive players were paid for hits that injured opponents. I cannot overemphasize how serious I think the NFL will take this. I believe the forthcoming penalties and sanctions will be severe, including major fines and significant forfeited draft picks. Watch and see.”

    Mike Wise, Washington Post: “Damage control through a public apology is not enough. Goodell needs to suspend Williams for a full season, if not more — take away his livelihood for a while the way he promoted taking other livelihoods away. And the teams that employed him and knew of his bounty on many of the game’s stars — and knowingly supported it — need to lose draft picks and be reprimanded for terrible misjudgment. Failure to punish sternly would tell all those players writhing on the ground in agony that they don’t matter, they’re expendable whenever an egomaniacal coordinator believes he’s bigger than the tenets of the game.”

    Les Carpenter, Yahoo! Sports: “It should surprise few in the NFL that Williams ran such a program. He was always talking about running a defense that would knock players out of games. Many of his players have been accused of playing 'dirty,' a moniker they wore with pride. When Saints linebacker Jonathan Vilma was asked in December what he thought of allegations his defense levied illegal hits, he laughed and replied: ‘I’d rather be known as a [dirty defense] than a finesse defense.’ But few coaches in the NFL have touched their players the way Williams did in Tennessee, Washington, Jacksonville and New Orleans where he was defensive coordinator. He created a pack mentality, bonding defenses in the united purpose of hunting down sacks, interceptions and yes, big hits. And generally his players loved this, enduring his verbal attacks and snide comments because he gave them the reward of playing with a relentlessness that other coaches didn’t offer.”

    Mike Freeman, CBSSports.com: “This is what you hear from NFL players all the time. Commissioner Roger Goodell doesn't really care about players. Goodell is a dictator. A bully. Goodell is arrogant and oh, yeah, Goodell doesn't really care about the players. But what an investigation into the New Orleans Saints and a despicable bounty system revealed shows the opposite. It shows that sometimes players, who push for safety, are hypocrites. While talking on one hand about their concerns regarding concussions, in another moment they are openly contriving to badly injure fellow players for chump change. It shows that on occasion it is indeed actually Goodell who attempts to control the more primal and at times disgusting tendencies of some players who do things when the cameras are off and no one is looking.”

    David Steele, FanHouse: “All this news about the Saints’ bounties, and the Redskins’ bounties, and the Titans’ bounties, and the players gleefully and smugly acknowledging how long it’s been going on and how widespread it’s always been … this is good. For every follower of the NFL, fanatic or casual, these revelations are extremely welcome. The hypocrisy can now end, and honesty can see the light of day. The NFL, its coaches, executives and especially its players can now stop the double-talk, the phoniness and the excuse-making. They can all face who and what they really are, and the fans can face them, too—and the fans, in turn, can face who they are. Nary a one of them gives half a damn about the players’ health, safety and long-term well-being. In that light, here’s hoping those extra $1,500 the players earned some afternoon when they gave that extra-hard body-slam to some vulnerable receiver, will buy them that extra day in the assisted-living facility they’ll be needing in about 30 years. If they make it that far.”

    John Clayton, ESPN.com: “Football is a sport that's violent enough. Having an incentive to hurt players can't be accepted. Commissioner Roger Goodell should deliberate this case and then make the biggest example out of the Saints so this offense won't be repeated. In Spygate, Goodell acted too quickly and did not penalize the Patriots and (Bill) Belichick as severely as he should have. Because Spygate happened early during the 2007 season, the Patriots and Belichick should have received a penalty beyond the fines during that season. A two- or three-game suspension of the head coach was warranted. For a bounty, Saints defenders were encouraged to hurt opponents. Now, Goodell must make the Saints feel the pain for their actions over three seasons.”

    Michael Lombardi, NFL Network: “I wonder what Pittsburgh Steelers linebacker James Harrison is thinking right now about ‘Bountygate’? I am sure Harrison is anxious to see what fines and suspensions Commissioner Roger Goodell has in store for the New Orleans Saints personnel involved with the implementation, as well as the cover up, of their bounty program. Harrison has a vested interest in this sort of decision, since the linebacker has been suspended, fined and clearly has been a point of emphasis in Goodell's crack down on player safety.”

    Read more: http://www.stltoday.com/sports/columns/ ... z1oFPUGFFz
     
    #141
  2. joeybittick Well-Known Member

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    NFL sends for Rams' Williams

    NFL sends for Rams' Williams

    BY JIM THOMAS • jthomas@post-dispatch.com > 314-340-8197 | Posted: Monday, March 5, 2012 12:35 am

    Read more: http://www.stltoday.com/sports/football ... z1oFPvLVj6


    When the NFL announced Friday that Gregg Williams ran an illegal "bounty" program during his three seasons as defensive coordinator of the New Orleans Saints, the stance at Rams Park was that this was not a St. Louis story.

    But after a weekend full of reports and commentary on the situation, including new allegations that Williams ran similar bounty programs as defensive coordinator in Washington and head coach in Buffalo, it's looking more and more like that won't be the case. Particularly if Williams is hit with a suspension in his new job as Rams defensive coordinator.

    If that's the case, assistant head coach Dave McGinnis is the likely option for Rams coach Jeff Fisher to take over the St. Louis defense. McGinnis was trained in the same Buddy Ryan-style defense as Williams and has plenty of experience running defenses in the NFL, including five years as coordinator with the Arizona Cardinals followed by four seasons as head coach of the Cardinals. Although Williams and McGinnis both worked on Fisher's staff with the Houston-Tennessee franchise, it was a different time, and they have never worked together until now.

    According to multiple reports, Williams is being summoned to New York today to meet with members of the NFL security department. There is no indication so far that Williams will meet with NFL Commissioner Roger Goodell. An NFL spokesman declined to comment on today's meeting.

    Two sources initially told the Post-Dispatch on Friday that they believed Williams probably would receive only a hefty fine, perhaps as much as a quarter of a million dollars, for his role in the bounty program.

    But the new allegations about Williams' bounty programs with the Redskins from 2004 through 2007 and with the Bills from 2001-2003 may have changed the dynamics of the situation, making a lengthy suspension much more possible. Instead of what might be termed an isolated occurrence with the Saints, the new allegations detail a decade-long pattern of illegal bounty programs by Williams.

    The NFL made no mention of the alleged indiscretions by Williams in Buffalo and Washington in its lengthy report Friday, so at a minimum, today's meeting will broach that topic.

    In violation of league rules, the bounty program paid players bonuses for such things as interceptions and forced fumbles, but also for big hits that forced opponents to the sidelines or out of the game entirely.

    There have been no indications to date that such a program existed from 1997 through 2000 when Williams was defensive coordinator in Tennessee under Fisher.

    "Gregg never had any bounties," retired Titans safety Blaine Bishop told the Tennessean. "If we did, I never got paid. But the truth is we never had them."

    Bishop played for the Houston-Tennessee franchise from 1993-2001.

    "Gregg should be fined, punished, whatever the league thinks," Bishop added. "I don't condone it, and I just don't think it's right. But I know we never had any bounties when I played in Tennessee."

    Copyright 2012 STLtoday.com. All rights reserved. This material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten or redistributed.

    Read more: http://www.stltoday.com/sports/football ... z1oFPqNeAv
     
    #142
  3. joeybittick Well-Known Member

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    Oilers/Titans had performance pool, too

    Oilers/Titans had performance pool, too

    Posted by Mike Florio on March 5, 2012, 7:18 AM EST

    With evidence of the teams for which Rams defensive coordinator Gregg Williams worked over the past decade having internal systems that paid players for specific instances of on-field performance, it’s no surprise that there’s now evidence of the team with which he spent a full decade doing the same thing.

    Jim Wyatt of the Tennessean reports that the Tennessee Titans (and, before that, the Tennessee Oilers and, before that, the Houston Oilers) “had a player-organized performance incentives pool to reward big plays — everything from bone-jarring hits to touchdowns to downing punts inside the 10 — with extra money.”

    Former players who spoke to Wyatt said “coaches were aware” of the activity, but that the coaches “didn’t organize bonus programs or hand out money for deliberately injuring an opponent.”

    Of course, there’s a fine line between “bone-jarring hits” and deliberate efforts to injure. (Or maybe there isn’t.)

    One play said the mentality traces to Buddy Ryan, who served as defensive coordinator of the Oilers in the early 1990s.

    “Buddy used to put it simple: If you take the other team’s best player out, your chance of winning increases dramatically,” former Oilers linebacker Al Smith told Wyatt.

    Wyatt writes that, of a dozen players interviewed, none said that Williams administered a program for financially rewarding players who injured opponents. But safety Lance Schulters, who arrived in Tennessee after Williams left and Jim Schwartz became the defensive coordinator, admitted that the players had a system of their own.

    “Guys would throw out there, ‘Hey, knock this guy out and it’s worth $1,000,’” Schulters said. “Let’s say when we played the Steelers, and Hines Ward was always trying to knock guys out. So if you knocked [him] out, there might be something in the pot, $100 or whatever, for a big hit on Hines — a legal, big hit.

    “In some of our [defensive back meeting] rooms we had money up for big hits, stuff like that. But it wasn’t dirty, or anything crazy like ‘Take this guy’s knee out and you get $5,000.’ It was just a way of keeping it interesting.”

    Schulter’s right about one thing. The habit — long suspected and now fully exposed — definitely will keep it interesting, for weeks if not months.
     
    #143
  4. -X- I'm the dude, man.

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    Re: GW getting called to the Principal's office...

    I lol'd. :lol:
     
    #144
  5. joeybittick Well-Known Member

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    Williams, Payton, Loomis, players may face long suspensions

    Williams, Payton, Loomis, players all may face long suspensions

    Posted by Michael David Smith on March 4, 2012, 7:16 PM EST
    http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/20 ... spensions/

    Lengthy and unprecedented suspensions appear to be coming for those involved in the Saints’ practice of paying bounties to players who injured opponents.

    Mark Maske of the Washington Post reports that the NFL is considering long suspensions for head coach Sean Payton, General Manager Mickey Loomis, former defensive coordinator Gregg Williams and players who were involved in bounties.

    How long? Maske cited an unnamed source who said suspensions could be half a season or longer. One person familiar with the NFL’s thinking on the matter mentioned the decision in 1963 by NFL Commissioner Pete Rozelle to suspend Packers running back Paul Hornung and Lions defensive tackle Alex Karras for an entire season for gambling.

    Williams, who ran the bounty program and who’s now the defensive coordinator of the Rams, would seem to be the person who would get the longest suspension. Rams head coach Jeff Fisher should probably be in the process of coming up with a Plan B at the defensive coordinator position on his coaching staff because Williams, the Plan A, may be unavailable for some or all of the season.

    But Payton and Loomis appear to be facing discipline as well, and players involved could also be suspended. The NFL said 22 to 27 players on the Saints were involved, but the league hasn’t said who those players are. We don’t know how many are still in the league, how many are still with the Saints and whether some players were ringleaders of the bounty program and will face more significant than others.

    What is clear is that NFL Commissioner Roger Goodell is preparing to come down hard. After the Spygate scandal, Goodell stripped the Patriots of a first-round pick, fined Bill Belichick $500,000 and fined the Patriots $250,000. All indications are that the sanctions for the Saints will be significantly more severe.
     
    #145
  6. joeybittick Well-Known Member

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    Expect Saints, Williams to get a bounty-ful punishment

    Expect Saints, Williams to get a bounty-ful punishment ( :roll: :roll: :roll: )

    By Jarrett Bell, USA TODAY
    Updated 8h 15m ago


    When Roger Goodell metes out what is expected to be harsh punishment for a New Orleans Saints bounty system that represents perhaps the most blatant violation of football ethics under his watch, the NFL commissioner might borrow that phrase from the book of aggression authored by former defensive coordinator Gregg Williams.

    It was Williams who boldly declared during the Saints' march to a Super Bowl crown during the 2009 season that his players would deliver "remember me" shots to opposing quarterbacks as a statement of their intimidation.

    According to findings of an NFL investigation released Friday — one that implicated Williams, general manager Mickey Loomis and 22 to 27 Saints defensive players from 2009 to '11 — the tough talk was a reflection of a larger scheme.

    It even came with a price list:

    •Knock out an opposing player? $1,500.

    •Deliver the blow that results in an opponent getting carted off the field? $1,000.

    •Strike such a debilitating blow during the do-or-die playoffs? Double or triple payments.

    The fund, which might have reached as much as $50,000 during the 2009 playoffs, was fueled by contributions from players and Williams, the NFL said.

    "There's no place in the game for that," Kurt Warner, the Hall of Fame-credentialed quarterback who was knocked out of his final NFL game against the Saints during the 2009 NFC playoffs, told USA TODAY. "So obviously this is troubling."

    Against the backdrop of the NFL's initiative on safety and former players' lawsuits charging the league didn't do enough to protect them from head injuries, it's in Goodell's hands to make a statement that will likely exceed the enormous penalties levied against the New England Patriots for their "Spygate" infractions during the 2007 season.

    Coach Bill Belichick was fined $500,000 and the Patriots were docked $250,000 and a first-round draft pick for videotaping the signals of New York Jets defensive coaches.

    According to an person familiar with Goodell's thinking who is not authorized to speak publicly while the case is ongoing, the commissioner views the Saints' case as a critical opportunity to underscore the league's burgeoning emphasis on safety and need to change a culture that sometimes promotes injuries, another sign a significant penalty could be coming.

    The Washington Post, citing people familiar with the situation, reported Sunday that the suspensions could be a half-season or longer in some cases.

    During his six-year reign Goodell has typically moved swiftly in determining discipline. He is expected to rule before NFL owners convene for meetings in Palm Beach, Fla., on March 25.

    As outlined in the league's announcement on Friday, the discipline could include fines, suspensions and loss of draft picks.

    "The stance that Roger takes will have to reflect the thought that everybody — coaches, owners, players, staff members — has to realize that they cannot put themselves in a situation where they are jeopardizing the integrity of the game," Hall of Fame safety Ronnie Lott, a member of the NFL safety committee, told USA TODAY. "Everyone has to be accountable."

    Payment details

    The NFL said its findings were supported by 18,000 documents. The person told USA TODAY that these mostly contained e-mails that include details about payments. NFL investigators were granted access to the team's computer system by Saints owner Tom Benson after he was presented with additional information about the program earlier this year.

    Williams, who left the Saints in January to reunite with coach Jeff Fisher as defensive coordinator of the St. Louis Rams, is the most obvious target for strict discipline.

    Since Friday, charges have surfaced that link Williams to similar "pay for performance" plans during previous stops with the Washington Redskins, Buffalo Bills and Tennessee Titans. He has been summoned to New York to meet with NFL security officials on Monday, according to an ESPN, citing persons familiar with the situation.

    On Friday, Williams released a statement apologizing for his actions with the Saints.

    "We knew it was wrong while we were doing it," Williams said. "Instead of getting caught up in it, I should have stopped it. I take full responsibility for my role."

    While Saints coach Sean Payton was not a direct participant in the funding and administration of the program, the NFL contends he did nothing to stop it after learning of allegations. A team spokesman said Sunday that Payton is not commenting on the matter.

    Loomis, meanwhile, is said to have not carried out directions from Benson to immediately end the bounty program when the team was informed of new information this year. Loomis, in 2010, also denied existence of the program.

    Furthermore, the NFL in a statement released Friday indicated that as a number of Saints players were involved as "willing and enthusiastic participants" — and are subject to discipline, according to the person.

    The most alarming implication of a player surrounds Pro Bowl linebacker Jonathan Vilma. According to SI.com, citing one club "source" who was briefed on the investigation, Vilma offered $10,000 to any teammate who knocked then-Minnesota Vikings quarterback Brett Favre out of the 2009 NFC Championship Game.

    "I'm not pissed," Favre told SI.com. "It's football. I don't think anything less of those guys."

    Favre agreed with Warner and several other current and former players who see the intent to knock key players out of games as a part of football. Warner was knocked out of the 2009 NFC divisional playoff game at New Orleans by a vicious but legal hit by defensive end Bobby McCrary after an interception.

    Said Warner, "I think you're crazy if you think that there weren't defensive linemen that sat at their locker before the game saying, 'Hey, I'm buying dinner if we knock somebody out first.' Those kind of things have been around our game for a long time."

    Not talking

    Since the report was released, accused Saints players have primarily remained silent.

    Former safety Darren Sharper, though, acknowledged on The NFL Network that the Saints indeed had a performance system that reward players for big plays, such as interceptions or sacks — illegal under NFL rules as a salary cap violation.

    Sharper, a member of the 2009 squad, maintained that the line was drawn when it came to hurting opponents.

    "The math doesn't make sense," Sharper said. "The amount that you would get fined for taking a cheap shot at a guy is exponentially higher than what the amount of money that a bounty could be. So it doesn't make sense at all to me to say that guys would go out there to intentionally hurt guys. Because they're going to hurt themselves, their career, their own pockets. "

    Warren Sapp, the former all-pro defensive tackle, said the great Tampa Bay Buccaneers defense that he keyed for much of his 13-year career, never placed bounties on opponents — and that he would have railed on any teammate that suggested as much.

    "In this case," Sapp said of the Saints, "it's baffling not only that they did it, but that they were stupid enough to write it down."

    He has a theory as to why the NFL's investigation was revived after seemingly hitting a dead end. He believes there is a whistle-blower.

    "There's a golden rule in NFL locker rooms: Fast pay makes fast friends," said Sapp, now an NFL Network analyst. "Somebody didn't get paid. I'll bet my last dollar on that. It was probably the bookkeeper."

    Setting prices

    Former safety Matt Bowen wrote in the Chicago Tribune on Saturday of the bounty program that existed when he played with the Redskins during Williams' tenure from 2004 to '07. Bowen said prices were set during Saturday night meetings, with the pot collected during the season from fines that players imposed on each other for infractions during the week that could included a chinstrap unbuckled or missed tackle.

    "It was a system we all bought into," Bowen wrote. "I ate it up."

    Bowen contended that the Redskins' bounties were for clean hits. Nonetheless, that practice is now part of a review that at minimum, could determine Williams' discipline.

    The allegations are mounting against Williams, who has long had a reputation for an aggressive style. Safety Coy Wire told The Buffalo News there was a similar program when Williams was head coach of the Bills from 2001 to '03. Tony Dungy told ProFootballTalk.com that he "knew" Williams had a bounty system in 2000 as Titans defensive coordinator under Fisher.

    Like Fisher, Williams broke into the NFL coaching ranks under Buddy Ryan— who was accused by former Dallas Cowboys coach Jimmy Johnson in 1989 of placing bounties on quarterback Troy Aikman and kicker Luis Zendejas.

    The NFL never found any wrongdoing against Ryan, but Goodell appears to have more than enough evidence to act upon.

    "I t's a tough situation the Commissioner has to deal with in the NFL, and, as he has in the past, obviously he'll have to deal with it with a stiff hand," Detroit Lions defensive tackle Ndamukong Suh said Sunday.

    Suh, of course, knows all about Goodell's disciplinary yardstick. He was suspended two games last season for stomping on his opponent.

    "Hopefully," he said, "people can learn from their mistakes and make an example out of it."

    Contributing: Jim Corbett, Seth Livingstone in Avondale, Ariz.
     
    #146
  7. joeybittick Well-Known Member

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    Feel-good or foul: Re-examining Saints amidst bounty charges

    Feel-good or foul: Re-examining Saints amidst bounty charges

    http://www.usatoday.com/sports/columnis ... 53346122/1
    By Mike Lopresti, USA TODAY
    Updated 1d 10h ago

    This is not just about the New Orleans Saints. This is about professional football.

    This is about the dilemma of a violent sport, where pain is assumed and blood accepted. A brutal playground, where when the bodies smash against one another, the crowd and scoreboard only holler for more.

    Chivalry among that? Good luck. So there is now a scandal and the Saints look very, very ugly. Yet you wonder if this was not only one team's misplaced malice, but also the inevitable result of how business is done each autumn Sunday in America.

    And you wonder about the mentality of players, and whether they want a safer game or they don't. Or if there is even an answer to that question.

    Since the subject is football, maybe we should do what they do before every game. Here's a coin. Call it, heads or tails.

    Heads, the Saints were the feel-good story of 2009, among the most sentimental of Super Bowl champions. The civic heroes who made the anguish of Hurricane Katrina go away.

    Tails, the Saints were the rogues of 2009, among the most infamous of Super Bowl champions. The malevolent bounty hunters who profited from anguish.

    Heads, New Orleans numbers to remember - 31-17 over the Indianapolis Colts for the title.

    Tails, New Orleans numbers to remember -- $1,500 for knockouts, $1,000 for cart-offs.

    Heads, defensive coordinator Gregg Williams boasting of delivering ``remember me" shots on quarterbacks.

    Tails, from former defensive coordinator Gregg Williams, "I want to express my sincere regret and apology …" He's certainly being remembered in the commissioner's office about now.

    Heads, television image replayed again and again: Drew Brees holding his son after the Super Bowl.

    Tails, television image replayed again and again: Bobby McCray apparently going after Brett Favre's knees in the NFC Championship Game.

    Heads, they were physical and playing with a purpose. This team came to be loved because of its strong will.

    Tails, they were dirty. Strong will polluted this team's perspective, and judgment.

    Heads, the NFL players and their union representatives talk passionately on the issue of safety. They number the victims of concussions. They shudder at the medical reports of long-term health impact. They seethe at anything that might endanger their careers. They want action.

    Tails, some of them are in the locker room, offering one another money to maim the other team.

    Heads, the public likes a clean sport.

    Tails, the public loves victories.

    Heads, there are penalties for illegal play.

    Tails, a small price to pay for a championship.

    Heads, the players want to win, and short of that, to keep a job.

    Tails, imagine how hard it is, in a world with the phrase ``controlled violence,'' to find the line where there is just enough ferocity to succeed, but not enough to hurt and be hurt.

    Heads, the Friday news was shocking.

    Tails, not really, since bounties are somewhat older than iPads.

    Heads, for the players, it is a dream to play professional football.

    Tails, a lot of them die young.

    Heads, NFL stadiums remind you of giant street festivals, with their enthusiasm and joy.

    Tails, NFL stadiums remind you of the Colosseum in Rome, where the masses gleefully scream, with thumbs down, for gladiators to attack with no mercy.

    Heads, a lot of parents want their kids to grow up to be football players.

    Tails, anyone for tennis?

    Heads, Spygate. The New England Patriots were disgraced with their snooping, but nobody ended up on crutches. It cost them, all told, $750,000 in fines.

    Tails, Scrutiny on the Bounty. The Saints may end up being blamed for the end of Kurt Warner's career, and other trips to the MRI machine. It will take more than money, since any NFL franchise is awash with that.

    Coach Sean Payton allegedly looked the other way. General manager Mickey Loomis allegedly was told by his owner to stop the bounties, and didn't. Both merit suspensions, if the charges are true. Loomis maybe even worse.

    Heads, rules, order, safety. That's what the NFL wants, along with good ratings.

    Tails, mayhem, aggression, pain. That's what the NFL is.

    It's football, good and bad, heads and tails. Always the quandary of how much carnage is too much, for better or worse. The Saints just made it worse.
     
    #147
  8. -X- I'm the dude, man.

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    Too many people want to speak up about this, and too many news sources are reporting on it. In effort to keep from congesting the forum with the same story rehashed, we'll fill this thread with any new opinions on it. That way if you want to read up on it, it's all here. You're free to start a discussion thread on it in the Rams Talk forum of ROD, and once it's run its course, we'll throw it in here.

    [espn]7646982[/espn]
     
    #148
  9. joeybittick Well-Known Member

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    Good idea. I know I posted several "new" articles on the topic just this morning. They are popping up everywhere but all seem to say the same thing...
     
    #149
  10. -X- I'm the dude, man.

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    Pretty much. There's not going to be anything new on this (sans other people speaking out about it) until the Commissioner hands down a ruling. Like I said though, that doesn't mean people can't open a new thread to discuss a different angle on it. For instance, starting a thread about *their* personal opinions and whatnot.

    Anyway, here's more of it on the Mike & Mike Show. Adam Schefter weighs in.

    [mp3]http://cdn16.castfire.com/audio/303/2117/7825/887091/audiomikeandmike_2012-03-05-075731-3953-0-0-0.32.mp3?cdn_id=33&uuid=ef50bbc7a1f05d6e5b6e3bebd86f5519[/mp3]

    .
     
    #150
  11. Stranger How big is infinity?

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    Re: Williams, Payton, Loomis, players may face long suspensi

    Wonder how Brees feels right now, with the prospect of loosing his HC for a long long time.
     
    #151
  12. -X- I'm the dude, man.

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    From FO - Bounties don't equate to illegal hits

    Part of the article from Football Outsiders...

    When we first ran the numbers for 2010 and 2011, we thought, wow, that's actually some pretty strong statistical evidence that the bounty system did lead to more dangerous on-field hits. When we ran the numbers for the other years, however, that evidence became a lot weaker. From 2001-2009, no Gregg Williams defense had more than four Unnecessary Roughness penalties in a single season, or more than five Roughing the Passer penalties. Here's a table going back to his days as head coach in Buffalo:

    [​IMG]

    Of course, this isn't evidence that Williams didn't have a bounty system in place in New Orleans. But if Williams has installed a bounty system on his defenses for years, as reports seem to indicate, it doesn't seem to have led to quite as many rough and illegal hits on the field as you might expect. Or, at least, not as many rough hits that were flagged as illegal.

    http://footballoutsiders.com/extra-poin ... lty-record
     
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  13. HitStick Well-Known Member

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    Re: From FO - Bounties don't equate to illegal hits

    FREE GREG WILLIAMS!
     
    #153
  14. -X- I'm the dude, man.

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    Charles Barkley: "There were bounties in the NBA"

    Howard Balzer
    Portion of the article below - whole one here.


    On The Dan Patrick Show, Barkley said, “You have to be a punk to snitch that out. That’s like giving a reporter an anonymous quote. That makes you a punk, if you do anonymous, but also, you don’t bring that out x amount of years later. I mean you don’t compete in it if you don’t want to be in it. But I’ve seen at least three or four well-known NFL players say all teams have bounties. So I’m glad they came to Gregg Williams’ defense. Because I’m pretty sure all teams have that.”

    Barkley said there were bounties in the NBA.

    He said, “I’m a firm believer, if a guy shoots a three, that you knock his ass as far in the stands as you possibly can. We were getting beat by 30 or 40, I can’t remember, and the guy was shooting threes, running up and down the court, and I said, ‘Hey, we’ve got to hurt that guy right there.’

    “I think it was $5,000. We get paid better in the NBA.”

    Finally, Barkley got to the heart of the matter as it relates to pro football.

    He said, “In the heat of an NFL game, when guys are trying to make tackles, you’re always trying to hit the guy as hard as possible. I think you always want to knock the best players out of the game. I want to get Aaron Rodgers or Tom Brady out of the game. That’s better for my team. Do I want to hurt them? No, but I want to hit them hard. That’s better for my team.”
     
    #154
  15. Angry Ram aka Captain RAmerica aka the OG Rammer

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    I somewhat agree w/ Chuck. Yeah it's fine to hit as hard as possible and try to intimidate opponents, but getting rewarded via cash is just wrong. It's like the players w/ targets on them are animals and the players/coaches/whoever are the hunters, and get a trophy (cash) for their "kills." I don't like that, and it looks really, really bad for the NFL whose whole image is this high end morally superior brand/business/whatever.
     
    #155
  16. Selassie I H. I. M.

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    The part that is really pissing me off with the media is the constant speculation about Greg being suspended. Today I've heard media guys say they think it will be 8 - 16 games,,, we've all heard some of the hacks say they would ban him for life.

    I may be wrong, but I am not aware of any precedent for this kind of thing. How in the freak can these hacks give a 8 - 16 game suspension conclusion from what LITTLE facts they have concerning the 50,000 page investigation? They are pulling numbers out of their ass. I'm sure the gloom and doom might help them sell some papers or boost their listeners on radio, and that's all I see them trying to do here.

    How many games has James Harrison been suspended for due to his long history of over-the-top personal fouls (determined to be finable in large dollar values by the league) ??? I don't think he's been suspended for any,,, and if he was, it certainly wasn't for 8 - 16 games. Keep in mind, this cat has a multitude of these violations as well.

    We'll see what actually happens, but I will say this,,, Haile ain't gonna be happy if suspensions of that length are handed out.

    I'm not even going to talk about what could happen if the evidence is destroyed again.
     
    #156
  17. -X- I'm the dude, man.

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    Yeah, I tend to agree with all that. It may seem, on the surface, that I'm overly-critical of Williams, but I'm really only on a fact-finding mission here. I kinda want to know everything about this to see what the big deal is. And like you said, I'm not aware of any precedent. Spy-gate is being used as a precedent, but only from the standpoint that the punishment has to exceed that. I don't know why. I mean, I guess I can see why *technically*, but I don't know that rewarding performance is worse than flat-out cheating by spying on other teams.

    I don't think a lot people are able to make the distinction between legal hits that take a player out, and illegal hits or cheap shots. The more I look into this, the less I see Williams connected to cheap-shots from a fine and penalty standpoint. His defenses were 'near' the top of the league in penalties some years, and other years they were no worse than any other team. I dunno. To me, it's more the fact that they were told to stop and didn't. Flipping off the league doesn't usually end well. And of course what they were doing was against the rules too. Doesn't matter that other teams may or may not have been doing it. Seems like N.O. was targeted because they were initially told to cut it out, and there was *someone* who tipped them off.
     
    #157
  18. -X- I'm the dude, man.

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    ESPN Round-table discussion about -- well, you know.

    NFL Live crew discuss bounties in the NFL and if players would change the way they play if there was a bounty.

    [espn]7649485[/espn]
     
    #158
  19. Selassie I H. I. M.

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    Re: ESPN Round-table discussion about -- well, you know.

    Anyone else besides me despise steve young ?

    freak him, and the san fagsisco forty whiners.
     
    #159
  20. RamFan503 Grill and Brew Master

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    Re: ESPN Round-table discussion about -- well, you know.

    Absolutely. And that freak wad Teddy could take a long walk off a short pier too.
     
    #160