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Bountygate

Discussion in 'RAMS - NFL TALK' started by bluecoconuts, Mar 2, 2012.

  1. libertadrocks Well-Known Member

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    Re: Dungy: Titans had a bounty on Peyton Manning

    I dont think the NFL will give us anything.

    Honestly it may be wise to cut our losses and fire Williams. Make him the scapegoat. Im worried the longer he's in the organization the more likely Fisher is to be dragged in.

    Promote McGinnis to DC so that the subsequent hires still mesh.
     
    #101
  2. Stranger How big is infinity?

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    Re: Dungy: Titans had a bounty on Peyton Manning

    Yeah, I doubt it too. However, just exploring possibilties. And in this possibility, it could be that Spags did NOT know until after he took the NO gig and started working for the Saints. Perhaps he found out, then saw it as he duty to expose it as part of his shift to a 4-iillars regime in NO. I can see this scenario, as Spags would probably be falling back on what he saw as his moral obligation, and the right thing to do, irrespective of the possible reprocussions.
     
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  3. Anonymous Guest

    Re: Doug Farrar seeks the ultimate punishment.

    People said the same thing about taping practices. A lot of people do it. Well, my bet is, that got curtailed.

    It sounds to me like they went after the Saints (not Williams) because they warned the Saints to desist and they didn't.

    As for the rest of the league? As with taping practices, you only need one example to make it clear you're not going to tolerate something.

    Everyone else gets the message.

    But it doesn't do the league any good to go after every team. They don't want to make a scandal of the whole NFL, they just want to stop a certain practice.

    So go after the guys who flagrantly violated an order to stop it.

    That accomplishes everything they need to do right there.
     
    #103
  4. Cullen Bryant Well-Known Member

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    Re: Dungy: Titans had a bounty on Peyton Manning

    I don't think Spags had anything to do with this, it's clear the league has been investigating the Saints for a while, long before Spags was hired. The reason the story broke now is because the investigation concluded. I think thats all there is to that.
     
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  5. Stranger How big is infinity?

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    Re: Dungy: Titans had a bounty on Peyton Manning

    I agree that the Spags angle is a stretch, but I always like to try and keep an open mind while searching for the real backstory and the various motivations at play. But one thing I'm certain about, this is not a simple case of a long time investion of the Saints "just concluding". Personal vendettas and unsaid (to date) motivations are almost certainly at play here. The front story that we're hearing is virtually useless in helping to figure out the real backstory, that I'm certain of.
     
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  6. HitStick Well-Known Member

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    Re: Matt Bowen on GW while both were with the Redskins.

    Because now it affects the Rams. Seriously, If Gregg is suspended more than 2 games but Belicheat wasn't...I will personally be leading the "Impeach Godell" campaign.
     
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  7. steferfootball Well-Known Member

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    Re: Gregg Williams.... Bounty Hunter?

    Lol. Only the rams could find a way to be punished for another teams mistake. :lmao:
     
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  8. smram Well-Known Member

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    Re: Gregg Williams.... Bounty Hunter?

    I believe they will go heavy on the Gregg Williams personal side for the punishment, meaning higher dollar figure and no suspension to not hurt his new employer. The Rams have done nothing wrong and it would not be logical to hurt them in this deal. That said, I really believe this happens a lot throughout the league. It is a horrible thought about intent to injure, however I believe this will be overblown. I love the parts that I hear in some of the article about this, players comments about how passionate Williams' players are and coached nasty. This is pro football, there is going to be a killer passionate mentality. Not happy about the overall message this sends to youngsters and what have you but love that there's a fear factor to his defense and the overall mentality of the players he motivates if that makes sense.
     
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  9. Anonymous Guest

    Re: Gregg Williams.... Bounty Hunter?

    My guess is that he will be lucky if he gets off being suspended instead of outright banned.

    They could care less if this hurts the Rams.
     
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  10. Selassie I H. I. M.

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    Re: Doug Farrar seeks the ultimate punishment.


    Note to self...

    Do not interrupt zn's Star Wars discussion with football
     
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  11. -X- I'm the dude, man.

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    (LONG) Yahoo article on GW + Warner Vid

    By Les Carpenter, Yahoo Sports
    [​IMG]


    He always appeared to be a football rogue – brash and sneering, and outthinking everyone while at the same time spoiling for a fight. This turned Gregg Williams into one of the most sought-after defensive coordinators in the NFL – beloved by his players even as he tussled with the men for whom he worked.

    And it forever made the man who ran the New Orleans Saints’ bounty program one of the most compelling men in football: a coach who could design magnificent defenses while at the same time touching the carnal desire to hit and hurt that lurks inside each defensive player’s soul.

    [wrapimg=left]http://l.yimg.com/iu/api/res/1.2/DgTYhsRGG9MKAyhVAlIQfw--/YXBwaWQ9eXZpZGVvO2NyPTA7ZHg9MDtkeT0wO2ZpPXVsY3JvcA--/http://l.yimg.com/j/assets/ipt/Gregg-Williams-USPstoryVilm.jpg[/wrapimg]“Gregg is a little ‘we’re going to get after them’ in his approach. I like that,” once said former cornerback Shawn Springs, who played for Williams with the Washington Redskins.

    It is hard for many in the NFL to defend Williams today. No one can endorse the operation of a slush fund that paid out bounties for injuries to key opposing players as he has admitted to doing in New Orleans and is alleged to have done with Washington. But to grasp how it could happen, one has to understand the culture in which he coached, the combativeness with which his teams played and the way his players responded to his demands to be relentless and even dangerous.

    Or as Saints defensive tackle Sedrick Ellis said when asked a few months after Williams’ 2009 arrival what the new defensive coordinator had brought to the team: “Attitude. Attitude. Attitude.”

    It should surprise few in the NFL that Williams ran such a program. He was always talking about running a defense that would knock players out of games. Many of his players have been accused of playing “dirty,” a moniker they wore with pride. When Saints linebacker Jonathan Vilma was asked in December what he thought of allegations his defense levied illegal hits, he laughed and replied: “I’d rather be known as a [dirty defense] than a finesse defense.”

    But few coaches in the NFL have touched their players the way Williams did in Tennessee, Washington, Jacksonville and New Orleans where he was defensive coordinator. He created a pack mentality, bonding defenses in the united purpose of hunting down sacks, interceptions and yes, big hits. And generally his players loved this, enduring his verbal attacks and snide comments because he gave them the reward of playing with a relentlessness that other coaches didn’t offer.

    “I wanted to be That Guy for him, playing the game with an attitude opposing players absolutely feared. If that meant playing through the whistle or going low on a tackle, I did it,” former Redskin Matt Bowen wrote in a piece for the Chicago Tribune describing the way he felt about Williams. “I don’t regret any part of it. I can’t. Williams is the best coach I ever played for in my years in the NFL, a true teacher who developed me as a player. I believed in him. I still do. That will never change.”

    To understand Williams, to see the contradictions in a brilliant coordinator who ran a pay-for-hit program, you need to understand the phrase that has haunted him since he was a little boy:

    “Dumb jock.”

    He has been running from those words for decades, disdainful of everything they imply. He wasn’t the best athlete growing up in the western Missouri town of Excelsior Springs but he always made sure to play the most important positions: quarterback, pitcher, point guard. He wanted the roles that had responsibility. He wanted to be in charge. He wanted people to look up to him. He wanted respect.

    Nothing he hated more than being labeled a “dumb jock.” Even as a professional assistant, revered for his clever defenses as armies of players professed their devotion, the phrase burned at him. Dumb jock? He was much more than that. How could they distill him to a single, empty cliché?

    [ Doug Farrar: Gregg Williams’ bounty history should result in lifetime ban ]

    He has called his lingering resentment over the stereotype “a chip on my shoulder.” And it is why he has stomped around the headquarters of the teams that employed him with an air that many interpret as arrogance. His offices are always meticulous, notes ordered in tidy rows ready to be pulled off when necessary. His desk is immaculate, devoid of clutter. On days of important meetings he will rise extra early, long before the sun creeps over the horizon, to make detailed lists on his pristine desktop.

    When he signs his name, he does so clearly because Hall of Fame quarterback Jim Kelly once told him: “If you can’t read the name, does that mean the person isn’t proud of who they are?”
    Gregg Williams with then-Redskins coach Joe Gibbs in 2006.
    (US Presswire)

    [wrapimg=right]http://l.yimg.com/iu/api/res/1.2/lvTvYYigdIJKs9pfWuNnyA--/YXBwaWQ9eXZpZGVvO2NyPTA7ZHg9MDtkeT0wO2ZpPXVsY3JvcA--/http://l.yimg.com/j/assets/ipt/Gregg-Williams-USPstoryGibb.jpg[/wrapimg]He is well aware of his image. He knows people think him too smug for his own good. As a result, he won’t display the awards he has won in his office. But he can’t help worrying that someone might think he’s just another beer-swilling, empty-headed coach, shouting platitudes to each new head coach in an effort to keep cashing NFL paychecks.

    However, Williams is in fact a defensive genius. Those around the Titans say he had a great deal to do with the team’s success in the late 1990s, including the Super Bowl season of 1999. He is known for taking a base 4-6 defense and adapting it to any situation, going from almost exclusive man-to-man pass coverages in one season to none the following year depending on his players. Often the adjustments came weekly.

    This is why the Buffalo Bills made him their head coach for three tumultuous seasons, why the Redskins paid him handsomely to become their defensive coordinator and why Saints coach Sean Payton fired Gary Gibbs and then took $250,000 a year from his paycheck to generate enough money to lure Williams to New Orleans.

    Neither Payton nor Redskins coach Joe Gibbs seemed particularly fond of Williams. Payton rarely allowed Williams to speak to reporters, especially after Williams boasted on a Nashville radio station that his players were going to deliver “remember-me shots” in Super Bowl XLIV against the Indianapolis Colts. Gibbs was annoyed when Williams didn’t notify him of plans to start the first game after the death of safety Sean Taylor with only 10 defensive players – a tribute to the fallen safety. Williams insists he did notify Gibbs, but their relationship was clearly strained.

    Yet the results always justified the friction. And most defensive players whom Williams has coached adore him. Hardly wanting to be seen as the dumb jock, he instead portrays himself as a kind of smart gangster, a swashbuckling renegade who runs his a defensive unit separate from the rest of the team and without regard for basic rules. Most of his players love this. He comes at them with language so profane you would expect them to despise him. But he delivers his assaults with such a sneering edge, backed with such enthusiasm when they do something right, that his demeanor often endears him to them, making him the rare coach, three decades their senior, who can actually relate to them.

    “Gregg Williams is a very tough, very verbal coach,” Antonio Pierce, a former linebacker of his with the Redskins once said. “When I was there I respected him a lot. He may be killing his players in practice but he was the first guy patting you on the back after [you] made a tough play.”

    But there was no player Williams loved more than Taylor, who died after being shot in his home during the 2007 season. The safety was the essence of everything Williams cherished in a football player: honest, aggressive, relentless and reckless.

    Much like Williams, Taylor was a loner among his peers and misunderstood by outsiders. His viciousness on the field and glaring refusal to trust people off it masked a tenderness that only a handful of people ever saw. Williams understood Taylor’s mistrust, seeing it as a sign of character, and he encouraged Taylor to play with a near-intent to hurt because he knew that was when Taylor felt most free on the field.

    And when Taylor died Williams wept for days. He designed the missing-man formation for the first game after Taylor’s death as a way to help the defensive players heal. Among the people devastated by the shooting, Williams was the one who brought them together, whose raw emotions allowed them to cry, too, and may have generated an impossible run to the playoffs and a near-victory in their wild-card playoff game at Seattle.

    Years later Williams’ voice still cracked when Taylor’s name came up. And when games got tight and Williams felt anxious, he’d reach into his pocket and finger a coin with Taylor’s face on front as a sort of talisman to get him through the moment.

    [youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tLwmI9SeG3U[/youtube]

    Now he might need that coin more than ever. His career is in jeopardy. He is in St. Louis as a defensive coordinator for Jeff Fisher, the coach who believed in him first as a coordinator and let him lead the Tennessee defense. The NFL is certain to punish him, perhaps with a lengthy suspension. The league is far more concerned with player safety now than even when Williams first arrived in New Orleans and helped deliver a Super Bowl title.

    Calls to his cell phone were immediately routed to voice mail on Saturday, a signal that it had been turned off. He apologized in a brief statement that was released on Friday. Otherwise he has been silent.

    The coach who touched his players like few ever did has gone silent now, a victim of the very thing that made him beloved.
     
    #111
  12. -X- I'm the dude, man.

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    Re: Doug Farrar seeks the ultimate punishment.

    As posted in another thread, Kurt Warner doesn't necessarily have a problem with guys going out and making hard hits (within the confines of the rules) and trying to take players out of their game, or even getting them off the field, but towards the end he says that he would definitely have a problem with it if guys were getting paid to hurt other players. Relative to the hit Bobby McCray put on him, the one that effectively ended his career, he definitely would have a problem if McCray was paid to do that. And he says he thinks there's no place in the league for players to have the motivation, or intent, to go out and 'try' to hurt someone else or injuring to the point it affects their career.

    [youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tLwmI9SeG3U[/youtube]
     
    #112
  13. joeybittick Well-Known Member

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    Re: Doug Farrar seeks the ultimate punishment.

    *sigh*.... I hate the media.

    Such sensationalism. I wonder if this guy was calling for a lifetime ban for Belichick when that story came out. If Mr. Farrar had not but "LIFETIME BAN" in big bold letters would anyone care about his little article? Maybe I am out of the loop but I have never heard of the guy until just now.

    Oh, and awesome connection on the Boba Fett thing. I never would have come up with that :good1:
     
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  14. joeybittick Well-Known Member

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    Re: Doug Farrar seeks the ultimate punishment.

    Oh, P.S. I do think Williams should be fined, big time, because he broke a rule. And I think Payton should be punished even worse, because you know he had to have endorsed it. I just have a problem with sensationalism.

    I also find it... well, funny is not the word but it is all I can think of, that it would have been perfectly fine for Williams or any coach to say "Go break such and such QB's bones" and that would be fine, as long as there was no cash incentive. What if the reward had been more playing time, or promoting a back up to the starting lineup for a hit that knocked an opponent out of the game? Is that OK? And of course the big hitters are given a reward, that reward is more snaps. They put fear into an offensive players heart.

    Why are guys afraid to go anywhere near the middle of the field when they play Baltimore? Ray Lewis. Why are they scared of him? They are scared that when he hits them, they wont get back up. Same with Harrison and the Steelers. I get that bounty programs are against the rules and extremely unseemly, but defensive players get paid all of the time for big hits and hurting guys... in the form of their NFL paycheck.

    I don't know, I am probably missing the point, I just think this whole thing is kind of hypocritical by the NFL. Whether Williams was the Rams DC or not I would feel that way. I feel the same way about the fines for seemingly ANY hit certain defensive players dole out. There are guys who get fined for perfectly legal hits just because ESPN plays them 1000 times and they look bad in slow-mo.
     
    #114
  15. joeybittick Well-Known Member

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    Bernie: Hard to say how much Williams will be punished

    Bernie: Hard to say how much Williams will be punished

    BY BERNIE MIKLASZ, Post-Dispatch Sports Columnist | Posted: Sunday, March 4, 2012 7:38 am | 1 Comment

    The Rams appear to have a problem on their hands after new defensive coordinator Gregg Williams was implicated in the New Orleans "bounty" program.

    The NFL found that Saints players were paid bonuses for (among other things) hits that knocked opponents out of games. The NFL's official report cites the culpability of Williams, who ran the Saints' defense from 2009-2011. According to the league's report, Williams on occasion put his own money into the bounty pool.

    Williams issued a statement apologizing for his actions and conceding that he failed to intervene to stop the Saints' misdeeds.

    Also on Friday, the Washington Post reported that Williams had implemented a similar pay-for-pain bounty system during his time as the Redskins' defensive coordinator.

    Do we detect a pattern of behavior here?

    These motivational tactics aren't uncommon in the NFL. So-called bounties are nothing new in the NFL, but most teams manage to keep it quiet.

    But the league is trying to alter the culture. Player safety has become a crusade for NFL Commissioner Roger Goodell, who has cracked down on players that deliver violent hits on defenseless players.

    I'd be surprised if Goodell didn't hammer Williams with a lengthy suspension.

    And the punishment would be warranted.

    Given Goodell's serious initiative in this area, how could the leader of the NFL permit Williams get off with a relatively light punishment?

    Here are four possible, speculative reasons:

    • Williams may have come clean in advance by fully cooperating with the investigation. Williams could have helped the NFL discover the full scope of what went down in New Orleans. I'd imagine that the NFL would take kindly to such valuable assistance.

    • Williams did offer an unconditional confession and apology. This could be part of the arrangement in a plea-bargain deal to assure leniency.

    • Perhaps the NFL determined that Rams head wcoach Jeff Fisher was unaware of Williams' involvement in this unseemly business when he hired Williams in St. Louis. If so, the league may be reluctant to penalize the Rams for wrongdoing committed in New Orleans.

    • Goodell was criticized for letting New England Patriots coach Bill Belichick duck a suspension for his role in the notorious "Spygate" scandal. Belichick was fined $500,000, but Goodell didn't prevent The Hoodie from coaching. Should Goodell suspend Williams, the commissioner would clearly open himself up to charges of hypocrisy and favoritism.

    On the other hand, if Goodell wants to be taken seriously in his effort to reduce gratuitous and dangerous violence on NFL playing fields, he'll look bad if he gives Williams a break.

    This is embarrassing for Williams. And these revelations don't reflect well on the Rams, either. Williams may have been guilty of misconduct while working for another team, but he's a Rams' employee now.

    Another question: what did Fisher know, and when did he know it?

    Was Fisher aware of the pending accusations against Williams before he made the hire? An NFL source told me that Fisher did not know of the NFL's findings in advance of his decision to recruit Williams to run the Rams defense.

    We'll wait and see how this shakes out. I doubt that the Rams will consider firing Williams. But if Williams is suspended, does Fisher have a backup plan? More turmoil at Rams Park. It never seems to end.

    Read more: http://www.stltoday.com/bernie-hard-to- ... z1oAMZWanr
     
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  16. Stranger How big is infinity?

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    Re: (LONG) Yahoo article on GW + Warner Vid

    Protect the "integrity of the game"... c'mon, Kurt, we all know there is little "intgrity" in professional football.
     
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  17. Ram Quixote Knight Errant

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    Re: Doug Farrar seeks the ultimate punishment.

    The issue can't be about head-hunting, injury-causing hits. The league has already cracked down on that. As so many here have noted, football players have always tried to put the fear of pain into their opponent.

    It's the payment that's illegal, pure and simple, because, in the minds of the marketing-minded NFL, nothing motivates like money. Williams will be burned in effigy by everyone involved, even though the mindset of the players is 100% behind what Williams intended to create: intimidation.

    The timing isn't totally bad; it could have happened after the draft or in August. The Rams don't have to be punished for what the Saints did. Fisher and Williams need to get out from beneath the 500 lb. gorilla and do the proper thing. Whether that means Fisher firing or Williams resigning, it must be done and quickly.

    Stan isn't going to remain silent on this one. At least not where Fisher's ears are concerned.
     
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  18. ramsince62 Well-Known Member

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    Re: Doug Farrar seeks the ultimate punishment.

    Exactly, which takes me back to the issue of what this franchise is made of. BTW, I find the comparisons between Belichump's actions of cheating versus the intention to injure players disingenuous and deeply flawed. :boing:
     
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  19. ramsince62 Well-Known Member

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    Re: Bernie: Hard to say how much Williams will be punished

    >> I doubt that the Rams will consider firing Williams.<<

    Really?
     
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  20. Anonymous Guest

    Re: Doug Farrar seeks the ultimate punishment.


    Yes, the issue is the Bounties, not the hits.

    Bounties violate explicit league rules. That's the issue here.

    So I agree with post #2, and disagree with post #1 in the sense that hits per se are not the issue.
     
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