Bountycase to be Overturned?

[Stranger]

@SportsLawGuy

Judge- "I would like to rule in Vilma's favor. I do think you exhausted your remedies."

I'm still reading tweets, so stay tuned.

 

[Stranger]

@SportsLawGuy

Judge thinks process was unfair, punishment excessive, and that RG did not have power to discipline in these cases.

 

[-X-]

Well, if a judge finds that players aren't implicit in this 'sandal', then what would that mean for Gregg Williams?
Would that then, by extension, mean there WAS no scandal?

 

[Stranger]

@SportsLawGuy

But, judge thinks that players still have to exhaust appeal pending of Prof Burbank's arbitration decision.

@SportsLawGuy

Judge- if I can find a way to legally do it, I will rule in Vilma's favor.

 

[Stranger]

‏@SportsLawGuy

More good news for Vilma-judge believes that Vilma has shown irreparable harm. Key prong in getting injunctive relief.

 

[Stranger]

Here's an unformatted dump of all remaining tweets so far... sorry, but gotta run right now so don't have time to keep posting until laters...

@SportsLawGuy

Brees- "I'm here to support Vilma and the entire saints team"
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36m Gabe Feldman Gabe Feldman ‏@SportsLawGuy

Drew Brees now standing outside of courthouse during Vilma presser
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1h Gabe Feldman Gabe Feldman ‏@SportsLawGuy

Anyone's guess on how much time Judge will need, but suggested she believes may have to wait for appeal of Burbank ruling on 30th.
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1h Gabe Feldman Gabe Feldman ‏@SportsLawGuy

So, a lot of good signs for Vilma and other players today, but still questions about Judge's ability to rule and no injunction for Vilma.
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1h Gabe Feldman Gabe Feldman ‏@SportsLawGuy

So, no ruling today. Judge urges parties to settle, noting that it will take time for her to make decision.
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1h Gabe Feldman Gabe Feldman ‏@SportsLawGuy

No ruling from judge. Urges parties to talk because she will need time to decide. Settlement may be faster than her decision.
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1h Gabe Feldman Gabe Feldman ‏@SportsLawGuy

Lawyers are done.Judge has come to some preliminary conclusions but has serious questions about whether she can rule before appeal of Burban
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1h Gabe Feldman Gabe Feldman ‏@SportsLawGuy

Ginsberg- this has been "abomination of process." I assume he's referring to NFL process and not this hearing.
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1h Gabe Feldman Gabe Feldman ‏@SportsLawGuy

Kessler was thundering, Ginsberg now making emotional plea for fairness for Vilma to protect him from abuse of process
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1h Gabe Feldman Gabe Feldman ‏@SportsLawGuy

Ginsberg-Vilma learned of susp from ESPN.Can't be proper procedure. (Not clear if he's suggesting different network should've had scoop)
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1h Gabe Feldman Gabe Feldman ‏@SportsLawGuy

Judge actually chuckled when Kessler suggested league seems to think they could compile evidence and not turn it over to players
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1h Gabe Feldman Gabe Feldman ‏@SportsLawGuy

Kessler- NFL had absolute obligation to turn over all evidence.Mocking idea that NFL can have 1000 pages of evidence and show players none.
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1h Gabe Feldman Gabe Feldman ‏@SportsLawGuy

@dkaplanSBJ waiting to hear arguments before deciding.
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1h Gabe Feldman Gabe Feldman ‏@SportsLawGuy

Kessler- commish can't simply declare everything conduct detrimental and discipline for it.
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1h Gabe Feldman Gabe Feldman ‏@SportsLawGuy

Kessler now back up. Arguing why this falls under Article 14 of CBA (pay for performance) and thus must be heard by system arb
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1h Gabe Feldman Gabe Feldman ‏@SportsLawGuy

Judge recognizes serious question about whether she has power to do anything here. But she clearly would like to.
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1h Gabe Feldman Gabe Feldman ‏@SportsLawGuy

Judge-"this makes me crazy because I don't think this was fair." BUT (big but), she adds, " maybe I can't get to that."
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1h Gabe Feldman Gabe Feldman ‏@SportsLawGuy

Judge again suggesting that this was pay for performance and thus not within commish's jurisdiction.
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1h Gabe Feldman Gabe Feldman ‏@SportsLawGuy

Judge to Levy-does "conduct detrimental" overridevother provisions of CBA?Levy-not for you to decide. Judge- you're making me feel powerless
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1h Gabe Feldman Gabe Feldman ‏@SportsLawGuy

Levy closing by emphasizing that Judge must defer to collectively bargained process. Point of law is to keep courts out of these disputes.
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1h Gabe Feldman Gabe Feldman ‏@SportsLawGuy

Judge- players were caught between rock and hard place.If they argued case before RG on appeal, they might have lost jutisdictional argument
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1h Gabe Feldman Gabe Feldman ‏@SportsLawGuy

Judge makes clear,again, that she believes that players adequately participated in appeal before RG.
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1h Gabe Feldman Gabe Feldman ‏@SportsLawGuy

Levy-RG has reduced suspensions in past. Asks court to take judicial notice of @judybattista 's article.Judy and Oscar P getting shoutouts.
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1h Gabe Feldman Gabe Feldman ‏@SportsLawGuy

Levy- process requires RG to declare guilt of player before hearing appeal. That's not improper and not reason to vacate
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1h Gabe Feldman Gabe Feldman ‏@SportsLawGuy

Levy- commish was prepared to punish players at same time as coaches, but PA asked them to wait so could do own investigation.They never did
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1h Gabe Feldman Gabe Feldman ‏@SportsLawGuy

Levy- CBA requires RG to prejudge disciplinary issues. NFLPA,and Kessler, agreed to this process in the CBA. PA agreed to this inherent bias
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1h Gabe Feldman Gabe Feldman ‏@SportsLawGuy

Part of dispute Judge must decide is appropriate standard of review.Can Judge decide jurisdiction issue de novo or is great deference req'd?
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2h Gabe Feldman Gabe Feldman ‏@SportsLawGuy

Levy- arguing that commish had jurisdiction to hear case and judge must give deference to RG and Burbank.
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2h Gabe Feldman Gabe Feldman ‏@SportsLawGuy

Levy- "my comments are going to be relatively short, especially compared to my friend Mr Kessler"
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2h Gabe Feldman Gabe Feldman ‏@SportsLawGuy

@GregABedard He gave the Arsenio arm pump.
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2h Gabe Feldman Gabe Feldman ‏@SportsLawGuy

Thanks, Alex. Enjoy...RT @Alex_Flanagan: @SportsLawGuy Thx for great updates on Vilma hearing. Following it via you from London Olympics.
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2h Gabe Feldman Gabe Feldman ‏@SportsLawGuy

Kessler finishing up. "I think I've exhausted myself." Judge- "very impressive." Gregg Levy now up for NFL.
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2h Gabe Feldman Gabe Feldman ‏@SportsLawGuy

Kessler now talking about Oscar Pistorius. Kessle represented him in fighting for his right to run.
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2h Gabe Feldman Gabe Feldman ‏@SportsLawGuy

Kessler- this was a "kangaroo court. Fundamentally unfair."
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2h Gabe Feldman Gabe Feldman ‏@SportsLawGuy

Half expecting Kessler to do the Frank Drebin umpire dance when he finishes up his argument. No signs of Enrico Palazzo, though.
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2h Gabe Feldman Gabe Feldman ‏@SportsLawGuy

Kessler-in all other conduct detrimental cases,NFL had burden of proof & presented evidence.To extent NFL denies that,they're "making it up"
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2h Gabe Feldman Gabe Feldman ‏@SportsLawGuy

Kessler- judge can rule right now to vacate suspensions because no basis for suspensions.
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2h Gabe Feldman Gabe Feldman ‏@SportsLawGuy

Kessler now channeling Henny Youngman. Arbitrators deciding commish had jurisdiction to hear case "sliced salami so thin it made it bologna"
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2h Gabe Feldman Gabe Feldman ‏@SportsLawGuy

Kessler hammering home pt that RG's public statements of players' guilt after suspension but before appeal prove he was "evidently partial"
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2h Gabe Feldman Gabe Feldman ‏@SportsLawGuy

Kessler- RG was evidently partial b/c acted after suspension in way which "no rational person would believe he would change his mind"
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2h Gabe Feldman Gabe Feldman ‏@SportsLawGuy

Right. RT @TraversMackel: If judge agrees with NFLPA lawyer and overturns NFL commish, it will be ground breaking. Right @sportslawguy
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2h Gabe Feldman Gabe Feldman ‏@SportsLawGuy

Kessler argues that judge has power to appoint a new arbitrator to decide the case. To send this back to RG would be like "Groundhog Day"
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2h Gabe Feldman Gabe Feldman ‏@SportsLawGuy

That's key argument.Kessler says judge doesn't have to wait for Burbank appeal because judge can decide issue on her own. No deference req'd
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2h Gabe Feldman Gabe Feldman ‏@SportsLawGuy

Kessler arguing judge need not defer to RG in determining authority to rule on case. Ie, judge can decide commish had no authority
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2h Gabe Feldman Gabe Feldman ‏@SportsLawGuy

Judge again says that she seems to believe that she can't rule until appeal of Burbank ruling on 30th. Kessler trying to convince otherwise
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2h Gabe Feldman Gabe Feldman ‏@SportsLawGuy

Kessler, with a nod to Brendan Sullivan, says that judge is "not a potted plant. Can rule now."
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2h Gabe Feldman Gabe Feldman ‏@SportsLawGuy

NFL's favorite opposing counsel, Jeff Kessler, arguing why judge has power to overturn RG decision.Fair to say that he is "thundering away"
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2h Gabe Feldman Gabe Feldman ‏@SportsLawGuy

May need to exhaust internal appeal of Burbank ruling. &, judge suggests that cartoffs are bounties. So,mostly good for plyrs, but bag mixed
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2h Gabe Feldman Gabe Feldman ‏@SportsLawGuy

Summing up first 15 mins- Judge suggests NFL process was unfair,punishment was excessive, and commish may not have juris. But, plyrs...
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2h Gabe Feldman Gabe Feldman ‏@SportsLawGuy

Judge now discussing defamation suit. She is troubled by preemption argument. Ie, that defamation suit is preempted by CBA.
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2h Gabe Feldman Gabe Feldman ‏@SportsLawGuy

More good news for Vilma-judge believes that Vilma has shown irreparable harm. Key prong in getting injunctive relief.
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2h Gabe Feldman Gabe Feldman ‏@SportsLawGuy

Before the who dat nation starts celebrating, still a long way to go in hearing. NFL waiting to respond.
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2h Gabe Feldman Gabe Feldman ‏@SportsLawGuy

Judge- if I can find a way to legally do it, I will rule in Vilma's favor.
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2h Gabe Feldman Gabe Feldman ‏@SportsLawGuy

But, judge thinks that players still have to exhaust appeal pending of Prof Burbank's arbitration decision.
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2h Gabe Feldman Gabe Feldman ‏@SportsLawGuy

Judge thinks process was unfair, punishment excessive, and that RG did not have power to discipline in these cases.

 

[Stranger]

Well, if a judge finds that players aren't implicit in this 'sandal', then what would that mean for Gregg Williams?
Would that then, by extension, mean there WAS no scandal?

I believe Williams would have a very strong case, yes.

 

[-X-]

Interesting. But at the same time, he admitted to running a bounty system.

Is this whole thing with Vilma just him trying to exonerate his own name in connection with same?

 

[Stranger]

Interesting. But at the same time, he admitted to running a bounty system.

Is this whole thing with Vilma just him trying to exonerate his own name in connection with same?

Vilma has proven you can't believe anytihng NFL has said in this matter. I do not believe Williams ever admitted this.

 

[-X-]

Interesting. But at the same time, he admitted to running a bounty system.

Is this whole thing with Vilma just him trying to exonerate his own name in connection with same?

Vilma has proven you can't believe anytihng NFL has said in this matter. [hil]I do not believe Williams ever admitted this.[/hil]

Sure he did.

“I want to express my sincere regret and apology to the NFL, Mr. Benson, and the New Orleans Saints fans for my participation in the ‘pay for performance’ program while I was with the Saints,” Williams said. “It was a terrible mistake, and we knew it was wrong while we were doing it. Instead of getting caught up in it, I should have stopped it. I take full responsibility for my role. I am truly sorry. I have learned a hard lesson and I guarantee that I will never participate in or allow this kind of activity to happen again.”

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/20 ... e-mistake/

 

[bluecoconuts]

I think Vilma is just out to save his own name. I'm sorry but to me it's nothing but a selfish act to clear his name. Did the NFL act harshly? Yeah I think so. But the fact that none of the coaches are saying a word, to me, says that they knew what they were doing. The coaches are taking the hit and Vilma is like the little kid who wont go on time out.

I'm not saying that the NFL didn't do things wrong here in how they handle certain things, but they probably did. I'm just saying that Vilma only cares about clearing his name and not looking like a cheater.

I also think that the Judge is already setting them up for failure, because the NFL can challenge the ruling in a higher court if they so choose to do so. And when the judge says stuff like "I want to side with you I need to see if I can do it legally" they can argue that there wasn't a fair trial and that the judge was biased.




But I don't really know, nor do I care to be honest. I'm annoyed that the Rams got slapped when they had nothing to do with it, but that's life sometimes. Otherwise I could care less about the Saints or their players. They had a bounty up and got caught, next time don't do that.

 

[Stranger]

I think Vilma is just out to save his own name. I'm sorry but to me it's nothing but a selfish act to clear his name. Did the NFL act harshly? Yeah I think so. But the fact that none of the coaches are saying a word, to me, says that they knew what they were doing. The coaches are taking the hit and Vilma is like the little kid who wont go on time out.

I'm not saying that the NFL didn't do things wrong here in how they handle certain things, but they probably did. I'm just saying that Vilma only cares about clearing his name and not looking like a cheater.

I also think that the Judge is already setting them up for failure, because the NFL can challenge the ruling in a higher court if they so choose to do so. And when the judge says stuff like "I want to side with you I need to see if I can do it legally" they can argue that there wasn't a fair trial and that the judge was biased.


But I don't really know, nor do I care to be honest. I'm annoyed that the Rams got slapped when they had nothing to do with it, but that's life sometimes. Otherwise I could care less about the Saints or their players. They had a bounty up and got caught, next time don't do that.

Yes, you don't know, otherwise I would hope you would not be posting what you are posting.

This entire affair has been an eggregious overstep by RG and a bastardization of due process, to say the least. It's beyond dispiciple. All evidence presented to date has been either rescinded or is in serious credibility dispute. The intial cause for action is this case was started by a fired Saints staff member who publicly stated that he would make the organization "pay", but even he has rescinded his initial claims.

Any belief to the contrary is simply acquiscence to the NFL's massive propaganda machine which has pumped out lies and disinformation since the start of this entire sorry affair. I hope the judge forces the NFL to release all 50,000 pages of so-called evidence they have on this.... even she laughed outloud in court when the NFL lawyers said they didn't have to release this material.

Lastly, you should care, because it goes to the heart of this business, and even directly impacted the Rams. Quite honestly, I don't understand how someone could claim that they love this sporting business and not care about the abuses of power we are witnessing.

P.S. The judge made is crystal clear that she is going to rule against the NFL in this matter, her only limitation is what the law allows her to due, which she still needs to clarify. It is quite possible that she'll rule that RG simply does not have the power to implement any penalties against these players and coaches. If that happens, Williams will be back on the sidelines before the season starts.

 

[bluecoconuts]

That's the thing you argue for due process, and that doesn't exist in this context.

By the very definition of due process, the NFL doesn't owe it's players shit. Businesses do not have to go through due process to handle in house suspensions, punishments etc for employees. The NFL is a business, the players are employees. If that was the case then your local McDonald's couldn't write up a guy for burning french fries without going to court and getting the law involved.

It doesn't work that way.

Again, I'm not saying the NFL was 100% right here, I'm saying that claiming that they needed to give the players due process is incorrect. It's not me buying into the "propaganda machine" either, that is me knowing the legal limitations of due process and what it applies to.

The judge can also rule anyway she wants, if she rules in a way that forces the NFL to go back on its suspensions they will just go up another step like they did over the lockout. That's what they always do and will always do. And they will claim she is biased and from what she is saying, they will probably have a point. The entire situation will probably end up taking too long for Vilma to suit up this season anyway.

If the players are so concerned about the "power" that the commissioner has, then they shouldn't have given it to him.

 

[joeybittick]

I know I am wayyyy late to weigh in on this, but I think it is 100% unfair to punish the players in this case.

What were they supposed to do, tell their coaches they were not going to do something? With the way the contracts are in the NFL, that would cost a player millions of dollars.

The culture of organized football (NFL and NCAA) is that the coach is supposed to be the authority, the boss (obviously). It would be like if you were at your job and your boss asked you to bend/break the rules. You should say "no" as you know you are breaking the rules, but doing so could cost you your job.

Had Vilma or any player decided not to play by the coaches rules and participate, they would either be cut or be seen as a pariah, right?

If anyone should be punished for this it should only be the coaches. Again, what should Vilma (or any player) done? They could have turned state's witness but again, that would have cost them the respect of every player in the NFL possibly, and then no coach would want to sign them for fear of them spilling their own secrets...

 

[Ram Quixote]

I know I am wayyyy late to weigh in on this, but I think it is 100% unfair to punish the players in this case.

What were they supposed to do, tell their coaches they were not going to do something? With the way the contracts are in the NFL, that would cost a player millions of dollars.

The culture of organized football (NFL and NCAA) is that the coach is supposed to be the authority, the boss (obviously). It would be like if you were at your job and your boss asked you to bend/break the rules. You should say "no" as you know you are breaking the rules, but doing so could cost you your job.

Had Vilma or any player decided not to play by the coaches rules and participate, they would either be cut or be seen as a pariah, right?

If anyone should be punished for this it should only be the coaches. Again, what should Vilma (or any player) done? They could have turned state's witness but again, that would have cost them the respect of every player in the NFL possibly, and then no coach would want to sign them for fear of them spilling their own secrets...

That's nailing it. The suspensions of Vilma and the other players is for following their coaches' program. If/when they change teams, they'll likely follow those coaches' philosophies.

You could say, "but they followed rule breakers." What about that? If the league chose to suspend players before this because they broke rules when asked to by their coaches, quite a few good players would have missed time for suspensions.

The NFL holding players responsible for their coaches' conduct could become a wedge in the inherent trust between the two.

 

[Stranger]

I originally started coming to this forum because I was disgusted by the factless emtional ramblings of fans who were being led by a soul-less media that will say anything in order to keep their names in the public-eye or money rolling into their pockets.

I think this site does a pretty damn good job of staying focused and cutting-out the media noise, especially when we're analyzing football play on the field. But in the matter of this supposed bounty case, we've lost sight of truth-finding, and the media noise has completely tainted everyones perspective.

There is ONLY way to get to the heart of this matter, and that is to read the documents submitted to the court. Everything else, and I mean everything else, is totally and utterly unreliable at best, and downright lies and made-up shit at worst.

So, my call to action here is to forget everything that the media has said about this matter, and apply the same level of analytical fact-based scrutiny that you do to football play on the field.

So, here some critical things we know:

1. There was NO bounty program. At least the NFL has not shown sufficient evidence, and the evidence they have produced is deeply tainted and perhaps even fabricated.
2. The NFL & Rodger Goodell totally abused due process, not even working within the requirements of the new CBA.
3. Goodell did NOT act as an independent arbitrator in this matter, as called-for in the CBA, but pre-judged the situation and acted upon those prejudgements, curtailing any fair appeal process by the players and forcing them to seek legal solutions via the courts (the judge pretty much stated this on Friday).
4. Goodell may not even have the power to penalize players and coaches on this matter, given the rules of the CBA (The judge hopes to rule on this issue)
5. NFLN, and virtually the entire sports media, is NOT reporting on these two hearings and the issues being raised, and the judges comments. The media has gone almost totally SILENT after having bombed fans with Bountygate stories for months.

 

[-X-]

I originally started coming to this forum because I was disgusted by the factless emtional ramblings of fans who were being led by a soul-less media that will say anything in order to keep their names in the public-eye or money rolling into their pockets.

I think this site does a pretty damn good job of staying focused and cutting-out the media noise, especially when we're analyzing football play on the field. But in the matter of this supposed bounty case, we've lost sight of truth-finding, and the media noise has completely tainted everyones perspective.

There is ONLY way to get to the heart of this matter, and that is to read the documents submitted to the court. Everything else, and I mean everything else, is totally and utterly unreliable at best, and downright lies and made-up shit at worst.

So, my call to action here is to forget everything that the media has said about this matter, and apply the same level of analytical fact-based scrutiny that you do to football play on the field.

So, here some critical things we know:

1. There was NO bounty program. At least the NFL has not shown sufficient evidence, and the evidence they have produced is deeply tainted and perhaps even fabricated.
2. The NFL & Rodger Goodell totally abused due process, not even working within the requirements of the new CBA.
3. Goodell did NOT act as an independent arbitrator in this matter, as called-for in the CBA, but pre-judged the situation and acted upon those prejudgements, curtailing any fair appeal process by the players and forcing them to seek legal solutions via the courts (the judge pretty much stated this on Friday).
4. Goodell may not even have the power to penalize players and coaches on this matter, given the rules of the CBA (The judge hopes to rule on this issue)
5. NFLN, and virtually the entire sports media, is NOT reporting on these two hearings and the issues being raised, and the judges comments. The media has gone almost totally SILENT after having bombed fans with Bountygate stories for months.

Well I appreciate your complements about the site, but I'm not listening to the media about this case. Shoot, I tuned them out shortly after Williams came clean about his role in this whole 'scandal.' As it relates to Goodell handing out his own brand of Commissioner Justice, maybe you have a point. I don't really know because I'm not invested in peeling back the curtain of the NFL and exposing all the evil minions working behind the scenes.

Per your points though.

1. Yes there was a bounty program. It followed Greg Williams everywhere he went. Now that's either an amazing coincidence, or he was the ring-leader. Also, when I say 'Bounty Program', it's important for your to understand the context. *Bounties* are non-contractual awards paid to players. That's all. All this other head-hunting noise is irrelevant to the word bounty. Coaches and execs cultivating that climate is illegal (not against the law, but ILLEGAL) in the NFL. As such, yes; there was a bounty program.

2. Due process doesn't exist. I never heard the media say that, so that's just my take. If I want to fire an employee, I don't have to go before Congress to do it. I can just do it because he broke my rules. You'll have to further explain to me how he circumvented the CBA to suspend these players. If not having enough evidence is an example of that, then say so and show me.

3. That's probably true.

4. That remains to be seen.

5. That is peculiar, yes. They may not be permitted to, so that requires a little more investigation.

Back to my introductory paragraph. The "Pay for Injuries" portion of this scandal has really clouded the issues. It used to be pretty cut and dry until that audio came out of the Saints Lockerroom. That PROVED they were paying out money to players, but it also exposed the dirty side of football. A world where players were pooling money for injuries. That's the part that will be nearly impossible to prove, and at the same time, it's also the portion of this scandal that has pervaded the senses. It's only a portion of the CBA violation, but it's front and center in the media and with Goodell. That's also the part that makes this whole story very ambiguous. In that sense, Goodell has gone power-hungry, I think. He's not necessarily trying to dig out the truth in as much as he's trying to implicate anyone who took part in the "program" to further his agenda of player safety.

 

[Stranger]

1. Yes there was a bounty program. It followed Greg Williams everywhere he went. Now that's either an amazing coincidence, or he was the ring-leader. Also, when I say 'Bounty Program', it's important for your to understand the context. *Bounties* are non-contractual awards paid to players. That's all. All this other head-hunting noise is irrelevant to the word bounty. Coaches and execs cultivating that climate is illegal (not against the law, but ILLEGAL) in the NFL. As such, yes; there was a bounty program.

If you're not including media input, then what and where is the evidence for this conclusion?

By the way, I don't include coerced public statements in my analysis.

I don't really know because I'm not invested in peeling back the curtain of the NFL and exposing all the evil minions working behind the scenes.

C'mon, give me a break. People on this site analyze football play on the field to excrutiating detail, and no one gives them shit for that level of analysis. But I start to dig behind the scenes of the business side of football and I'm supposed to take crap for that? If this site is going to brand itself as a fact-based analytical site, then I think we should welcome people who try to stick to that level of discussion, irregardless of the football topic being discussed. Your site, your call.

 

[-X-]

1. Yes there was a bounty program. It followed Greg Williams everywhere he went. Now that's either an amazing coincidence, or he was the ring-leader. Also, when I say 'Bounty Program', it's important for your to understand the context. *Bounties* are non-contractual awards paid to players. That's all. All this other head-hunting noise is irrelevant to the word bounty. Coaches and execs cultivating that climate is illegal (not against the law, but ILLEGAL) in the NFL. As such, yes; there was a bounty program.

If you're not including media input, then what and where is the evidence for this conclusion?

By the way, I don't include coerced public statements in my analysis.

I don't really know because I'm not invested in peeling back the curtain of the NFL and exposing all the evil minions working behind the scenes.

C'mon, give me a break. People on this site analyze football play on the field to excrutiating detail, and no one gives them shit for that level of analysis. But I start to dig behind the scenes of the business side of football and I'm supposed to take crap for that? If this site is going to brand itself as a fact-based analytical site, then I think we should welcome people who try to stick to that level of discussion, irregardless of the football topic being discussed. Your site, your call.

Apples and oranges. Football analysis (on the field stuff) is quite different than trying to uncover a grand scheme of corruption. Wouldn't you say? And nobody is giving you shit for anything. I think you took my statement out of context, so I'll let you go ahead and cool down before I say anything else about this.

 

[Stranger]

Apples and oranges. Football analysis (on the field stuff) is quite different than trying to uncover a grand scheme of corruption. Wouldn't you say? And nobody is giving you shit for anything. I think you took my statement out of context, so I'll let you go ahead and cool down before I say anything else about this.

No, I wouldn't say. It is about an adherence to a process and loyalty to the truth. The topic of discussion happens to be irrelevant.

In any event, below are just a couple of clips from recent threads on the Bountygate topic, where I believe that I've taken shit for trying to dig farther than the what the corporate media is shilling to the public. I believe that this has been a recurring theme here, dis'ing anyone who wants to dig further, and this behavior has been condoned via silence.

I find that audio very disturbing. It's one thing to try and make plays, but "kill the head?" What happened to that fraternity that the players had? Did the players/coaches during games when a major injury occured thought to themeselves "yes we killed him!"?

Kill the head is more talking about the psychological aspect of the game. Scare them, make them hear footsteps, etc. That's nothing new in the game, that part of the audio (in my opinion) isn't really anything, the disturbing part to me was when they mention the ACL and concussions.

That was my interpretation as well. I don't believe Gregg meant to be literal here, as some seem to be saying.

All in all, I think had many here heard that audio BEFORE this PR explosion, then there would have been very different interpretations. When I hear the audio, I hear a man who is trying to get his troops ready for war, and who is willing to say just about anything to motivate. I'm not one who condones this style, however.

I don't agree with Florio's take, by the way. But at least he points out that the timing of the release of this audio is on the same day that the Saints are meeting with Goodell - this couldn't have been accidental.

If it's not accidental, how convenient for the NFL, to have this not solicited audio come out, that the NFL didn't know existed.

Sorry. It's near impossible for me to believe much that the NFL machine puts out, not since SB36, not since Spygate.

And yet, why wouldn't they admit they had heard this before? Because of the timing of the release.

You gotta admit, this audio as smoking gun makes a whole lot more sense than some player (Shockey) breaking ranks to squeal on his former team.

Why does the NFL need a "convenient" thing like this?

There was no serious questioning of what they did.

And besides, to indulge conspiracy theories... EVEN IF IT WERE TRUE that they colluded, so what. Why would we care. The truth is the truth and why would that be suppressed. I mean Greg W was stupid enough to pay out bounties with a documentary film guy's camera running...why would I ever care about the motives for releasing it?

Honestly, like I said, going after the messanger is just kind of ineffectual.

Yeah, I think it is very possible that this case is contrived for alterior motives. I think it is possible that in a court of law, with a reasonably fair jury, and a good cross-examination attorney, that the case could be destroyed. So yeah, I don't put much stock into any of the media driven noise everyone else seems to be relying upon.

How is this case "contrived"? They have a ledger, they have emails, they have player testimony, they have tapes. ETC.

The only thing contrived is the denial.

And bear in mind, they have a very easy case to prove.

ALL they have to prove is that a coach offered a non-contractual reward. Of any kind. At any time.

That;s it.

No one even has to be paid.

There doesn't have to be injuries, illegal hits, anything.

JUST the offer.

And they already have more than that. Like, way more.

Naw, this one is painfully simple. The league told the Saints to quit their bounties program. The Saints denied it and then kept doing it. The league then escalated. The point? When we tell you to stop, you stop. Or--see what happened to the Saints.

Anything else is conspiracy theory.

Everything is being presented by the prosecution in this case, via media professional. Are you telling me that you trust this sort of process?

What almost comical after all of this, is that it's looking more and more like I was right all along....

‏@SportsLawGuy

@dkaplanSBJ Question was also whether NFL provided a fair process under the rules of the CBA. Judge seems to think not.

@SportsLawGuy

@dkaplanSBJ Court has ability to rule that league failed to follow their own procedures.