Blitz recognition - whose responsibility?

[DCH]

I noticed and have read/heard a few places that the Rams - and specifically, Hill and Davis - failed to recognize "obvious" blitzes on Sunday, leading to the Rams doing exactly what the blitzing D wanted them to do.

Seems like it's the QB's responsibility to recognize bad matchups - blitzes and the like - and audible into a better play, but was that it? I put this out to @CoachO and others more versed in actual game experience than I, how much of that is a guy like Wells needing to adjust protection calls at the line?

Also, I was under the impression that Hill would be better at diagnosing defensive looks and adjusting accordingly. Was I wrong? Was he better than I thought on Sunday? Is his veteran experience somewhat overstated or stunted by the fact that he's seen fairly limited gameday action during his career?

 

[CoachO]

The particular play I was referring to in my previous post, was the first sack of Austin Davis. There were others, but this is the one that really stood out to me.

Minnesota walked up their Safety (Harrison Smith), and it was poorly timed, in terms of showing it way too early. To your point as to whether or not this should be something Scott Wells should see, or not, IMO, he was already over the ball, they had already called out the protection, and they got caught in an overload situation at the LOS. There was no way to change the protection at that point.

What I was trying to point out, this is a case where the QB has to be aware and get the ball out to his "hot" receiver, who BTW, had recognized what was happening and had adjusted his route. But Davis was oblivious to the blitz, and took a blind side hit. This was so obvious from where I was sitting, I could see Smith was going to be unblocked, before the ball was snapped.

Hill did, and does recognize this sort of thing. He was sacked once, and on that play, there really wasn't much he could do to escape or unload the ball.

I realize there are going to be some growing pains if the Rams are forced to play Davis. I guess the reason for me posting this in the thread about the O-Line, was to point out that it isn't always as simple as blaming the protection, when a QB gets sacked. Of the 4 sacks Davis took Sunday, I think at least 3 of them would have been avoided if he had better awareness, and had made quicker decisions with where to go with the football.

 

[DCH]

The particular play I was referring to in my previous post, was the first sack of Austin Davis. There were others, but this is the one that really stood out to me.

Minnesota walked up their Safety (Harrison Smith), and it was poorly timed, in terms of showing it way too early. To your point as to whether or not this should be something Scott Wells should see, or not, IMO, he was already over the ball, they had already called out the protection, and they got caught in an overload situation at the LOS. There was no way to change the protection at that point.

What I was trying to point out, this is a case where the QB has to be aware and get the ball out to his "hot" receiver, who BTW, had recognized what was happening and had adjusted his route. But Davis was oblivious to the blitz, and took a blind side hit. This was so obvious from where I was sitting, I could see Smith was going to be unblocked, before the ball was snapped.

Hill did, and does recognize this sort of thing. He was sacked once, and on that play, there really wasn't much he could do to escape or unload the ball.

I realize there are going to be some growing pains if the Rams are forced to play Davis. I guess the reason for me posting this in the thread about the O-Line, was to point out that it isn't always as simple as blaming the protection, when a QB gets sacked. Of the 4 sacks Davis took Sunday, I think at least 3 of them would have been avoided if he had better awareness, and had made quicker decisions with where to go with the football.

The reason I was asking about Hill was a play in the 1st, where the announcers called out that Hill should have recognized the blitz (I believe it was a run blitz) and audibled away from Stacy up the gut right into the teeth of the blitz.

 

[Zaphod]

That is what I saw, reading the defense was definitely Hill's strength.

To me, it looks like he's a really smart player out there, and his weakness at least against the Vikings was relying on his knowledge of where people are supposed to be more than his eyes. Thus he threw to where his receiver wasn't once, into double coverage twice and got burnt by it once.

It could be me overreacting, but I think if a coach saw that, he might start exploiting it, which is probably why he was pulled if it wasn't really an injury?

I don't know, in the end I liked what I saw from Hill and would expect him to actually improve with this team when he next plays.

 

[DCH]

Also, is the protection call by the center done only once, or is there something akin to an audible where the center can change protection after the fact but before the snap?

 

[A320driver]

To add to that: There should be 2 plays called in the huddle on every down with the option being solely on the QB pre snap read..If you hear "kill " "kill " after QB calls initial "White twenty- set- hut"
They are changing to the second play at the LOS.
I didn't hear a lot of that on Sunday as per coach O's observation.
Again this scheme of Schoty's is a very complicated one; that does not translate well in a game situation with a QB who has not had the years of experience like Hill.....Davis who has had time here. Is the only option IMO until a guy like Keenum can get comfortable with it if he is to be the next man in....Right now he would be relegated to utilizing a very small sample of the play book, and that would not bring any improvement.

 

[-X-]

I don't know about all that "he should recognize (this or that)" talk I hear from fans. Defenses do a real good job of disguising things now. Even if they bring in safeties or pull a corner off the edge to show blitz, doesn't mean they're going to do it. I've seen a lot of instances where defenses show blitz just to cause an audible - only to have remained in with the same defense they were going to use anyway. Every pass play has a hot read in case of blitz, so I'm sure QBs and receivers adjust mentally at the first sight of a blitz anyway. Well, most of the time. I know I've seen a few instances of receivers and QBs not being on the same page with regard to that as well.

 

[A320driver]

The protection calls are based on who is designated the "Mike" LB. That position is the base in which the protection revolves around, and tells each individual who he is responsible for. That is also the RB, and TE's based on which guy on the O line have..O lineman will also pre snap read the D alignment, and make calls starting from Center out to the Tackle. If one guy screws up the calls it cascades down the line!
Why it's so important to have symbiotic continuity on the offensive front! So if you have an not so smart guy up there, he can disrupt a lot of shit ! It's like a Janga game gone bad
The Center calls the Mike every pre snap read.

 

[A320driver]

I don't know about all that "he should recognize (this or that)" talk I hear from fans. Defenses do a real good job of disguising things now. Even if they bring in safeties or pull a corner off the edge to show blitz, doesn't mean they're going to do it. I've seen a lot of instances where defenses show blitz just to cause an audible - only to have remained in with the same defense they were going to use anyway. Every pass play has a hot read in case of blitz, so I'm sure QBs and receivers adjust mentally at the first sight of a blitz anyway. Well, most of the time. I know I've seen a few instances of receivers and QBs not being on the same page with regard to that as well.

Yes! This is known as "sugaring" the look.
This has been the trend with D coordinators throughout the NFL over the past few years.
Looking to screw with the opponents pre snap reads.

 

[DCH]

I don't know about all that "he should recognize (this or that)" talk I hear from fans. Defenses do a real good job of disguising things now. Even if they bring in safeties or pull a corner off the edge to show blitz, doesn't mean they're going to do it. I've seen a lot of instances where defenses show blitz just to cause an audible - only to have remained in with the same defense they were going to use anyway. Every pass play has a hot read in case of blitz, so I'm sure QBs and receivers adjust mentally at the first sight of a blitz anyway. Well, most of the time. I know I've seen a few instances of receivers and QBs not being on the same page with regard to that as well.

Sure, but there seemed to be at least a few plays in which the Vikings' D didn't disguise well - or at all - what they wanted to do, and the Rams just continued along their original play-call right into the D's play-call.

 

[LumberTubs]

How do these guys (so many of whom come across as really stupid) manage to cope with all of these things they have to think about on each and every single play? My brain is sweating just thinking about it and I like to think I'm a relatively intelligent bloke.

I suppose the good thing is that these are the kinds of issues that, in theory, should improve with time naturally as players get used to each other more which gives me hope for the rest of the season. Having to adjust my expectations from 16-0 and 15-1 was tough to accept.

 

[-X-]

Sure, but there seemed to be at least a few plays in which the Vikings' D didn't disguise well - or at all - what they wanted to do, and the Rams just continued along their original play-call right into the D's play-call.

That could happen too, sure. But whether it's hot reads, sight adjustments, or a run play that puts the onus on the back to find the crease no matter what, there's always an alternate to every play call. Or you can have Peyton Manning who fakes audibles on every single play just to keep defenses on their heels. All that said, I do agree that our QBs should have the freedom to check at the line and change the play if they feel they can exploit what they *think* is a weakness. My question then would be, which of our QBs can and/or are permitted to do that?

 

[A320driver]

Sure, but there seemed to be at least a few plays in which the Vikings' D didn't disguise well - or at all - what they wanted to do, and the Rams just continued along their original play-call right into the D's play-call.

You are probably correct. At the end of the day a team will end up running the base defense on over 40% of the time ! This varies with teams that have a majority of vets who have been in the scheme for a longer period of time.
The offenses on the other hand tend to Stick with their game plans, and make adjustments more so at the half rather than on the fly..but it does happen

That could happen too, sure. But whether it's hot reads, sight adjustments, or a run play that puts the onus on the back to find the crease no matter what, there's always an alternate to every play call. Or you can have Peyton Manning who fakes audibles on every single play just to keep defenses on their heels. All that said, I do agree that our QBs should have the freedom to check at the line and change the play if they feel they can exploit what they *think* is a weakness. My question then would be, which of our QBs can and/or are permitted to do that?

Read my previous post on "killing" the play. You kind of nailed it with referencing Peyton Manning ...more to your point We miss Sam Bradford !!!

 

[DCH]

That could happen too, sure. But whether it's hot reads, sight adjustments, or a run play that puts the onus on the back to find the crease no matter what, there's always an alternate to every play call. Or you can have Peyton Manning who fakes audibles on every single play just to keep defenses on their heels. All that said, I do agree that our QBs should have the freedom to check at the line and change the play if they feel they can exploit what they *think* is a weakness. My question then would be, which of our QBs can and/or are permitted to do that?

To me, that's one of the biggest values a veteran like Hill can and should provide - along with quickly digesting a playbook and being calm on the field.

 

[Robocop]

The particular play I was referring to in my previous post, was the first sack of Austin Davis. There were others, but this is the one that really stood out to me.

Minnesota walked up their Safety (Harrison Smith), and it was poorly timed, in terms of showing it way too early. To your point as to whether or not this should be something Scott Wells should see, or not, IMO, he was already over the ball, they had already called out the protection, and they got caught in an overload situation at the LOS. There was no way to change the protection at that point.

What I was trying to point out, this is a case where the QB has to be aware and get the ball out to his "hot" receiver, who BTW, had recognized what was happening and had adjusted his route. But Davis was oblivious to the blitz, and took a blind side hit. This was so obvious from where I was sitting, I could see Smith was going to be unblocked, before the ball was snapped.

Hill did, and does recognize this sort of thing. He was sacked once, and on that play, there really wasn't much he could do to escape or unload the ball.

I realize there are going to be some growing pains if the Rams are forced to play Davis. I guess the reason for me posting this in the thread about the O-Line, was to point out that it isn't always as simple as blaming the protection, when a QB gets sacked. Of the 4 sacks Davis took Sunday, I think at least 3 of them would have been avoided if he had better awareness, and had made quicker decisions with where to go with the football.

it was painful to watch a lot of those sacks on Davis come in slow motion and he looked oblivious to them. but about the O-line what about run blocking? I mentioned it to you before CoachO and I know it's only been one game but that line caused the majority of that loss with no running lanes IMO

 

[CoachO]

it was painful to watch a lot of those sacks on Davis come in slow motion and he looked oblivious to them. but about the O-line what about run blocking? I mentioned it to you before CoachO and I know it's only been one game but that line caused the majority of that loss with no running lanes IMO

They ran the ball only 22 times. When they came out in the 2nd half, they actually did a good job opening some decent holes,, Cunningham had some good runs in that first drive of the 2nd half. The problem stemmed from falling behind, and being forced into being one dimensional.

I guess we are seeing two different things. Even Peterson didn't break off positive yards on every carry. He had 3 or 4 "no gain" or TFL plays.

 

[AnarchyRam]

Basically, we don't have very good qb's right now. Davis has upside tho, just needs more time. Rams may be better off just getting him some playing time

 

[DCH]

Basically, we don't have very good qb's right now. Davis has upside tho, just needs more time. Rams may be better off just getting him some playing time

I still think highly of Hill. He looked really good for the bulk of the first half. Can scarcely blame him for stupid penalties taken by Givens and Quick (who will, I hope, learn from those mistakes). I'm just curious about his ability to read defenses pre-snap, and it mostly comes down to the run play I mentioned before and the INT.

 

[Username]

That could happen too, sure. But whether it's hot reads, sight adjustments, or a run play that puts the onus on the back to find the crease no matter what, there's always an alternate to every play call. Or you can have Peyton Manning who fakes audibles on every single play just to keep defenses on their heels. All that said, I do agree that our QBs should have the freedom to check at the line and change the play if they feel they can exploit what they *think* is a weakness. My question then would be, which of our QBs can and/or are permitted to do that?

Davis was checking out of shit all day. He actually made some pretty good ones. The problem is like coach said, he's still missing blatantly obvious pressure. Even if he can't find his hot read, he HAS to get rid of that ball somehow. The only way to fix this is reps in an actual game situation, against an actual NFL defense. Is it worth continuing to develop him as a player even if it means losing a few games because of it? Imo no. Maybe the Rams think different though. Regardless, if Hill really is hurt there is no other option I guess. Though I hear Keenum is learning the PB pretty fast.

 

[A320driver]

I still think highly of Hill. He looked really good for the bulk of the first half. Can scarcely blame him for stupid penalties taken by Givens and Quick (who will, I hope, learn from those mistakes). I'm just curious about his ability to read defenses pre-snap, and it mostly comes down to the run play I mentioned before and the INT.

It all comes down to a QB's ability, and willingness to live in the film room. This is crucial to a QB being able to effectively execute the game plan..They have to dump the last opponent, and move on to the next sans conference teams
But this also applies to the other positions...many of these penalties are inexcusable errors that should not be happening on a continuing basis. That kind of stuff will get you benched.