Bernie: Rams still too short of talent

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Prime Time

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As for liking Bernie, I don't particularly like him or his stuff. I defend him because I'm so tired of people talking crap about other people because they can get away with it on the internet. People talk crap here about Demoff and management rightfully gets upset about that and asked that we desist because he's been very good to the ROD and he reads us. Plus it's the right thing to do anyway. Why is the same standard not being met with Bernie? Do we base our conduct on how much they contribute to the ROD (not talking about money)? People come to a thread that has Bernie in the title just to bad mouth him and it pisses me off. I'd do the same for any other sports writer.

While I agree with the basics of this, and you've been around me long enough to know that I don't do the name calling thing, there's a difference between Bernie and Kevin Demoff and how they're treated here.

KD is a member of ROD and part of the Rams staff. Bernie is not. KD is polite. Bernie is not. The snide remarks he makes about Rams fans in almost every one of his articles, leaves him wide open for the type of vitriol he gets. There's a reason his articles were banned here for awhile. The responses created a bad vibe. Maybe it's time to do that again and this time permanently.
 

thirteen28

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Bernie ISN"T relying on them, he's commenting on them and coming to the conclusion that whether you agree with them or not, we aren't where we should be after three years armed with a plethora of high picks.

Again I have to ask, did you even read the whole thing? Is so, how did you miss stuff like this:
"As much as I respect the crew at Pro Football Focus for their excellent and diligent work, I don't agree with all of their opinions. Two quickie examples: I think defensive end RobertQuinn is an elite player — not a "very good" player. I don't see how QB SamBradford can receive an "average" grade when he's missed the last 25 regular-season games. Bradford hasn't played in a real game since Oct. 20 of the 2013 season. So how do we know? " So those are just two quick examples of stuff he disagrees with PFF about which means there are even more he didn't mention. The guy basically agrees with your take on some of the PFF grades and you dis him? :LOL:

Sometimes, certain writing styles lend themselves to misreadings. Many of you don't seem to be reading the same article I am. ;)

Yes, I read it. I used Quinn as an example against PFF, not against Bernie's opinion. But I don't agree with his opinion on this either.

And whereas he puts a significant amount of stock in PFF's rankings, even if he disagrees with some, I don't. There are a number of factors that affected this team's performance and pulled down the ratings for a lot of players that shouldn't otherwise have been pulled down.

1) The obvious one, losing Bradford in the preseason ends up affecting the ratings of the entire offense. As far as rating Sam as average, I would rate him as "incomplete" ... how can you rate a player accurately when he's missed so much time, his sample size is low, and consists mostly of time when a lot of the key pieces brought in to help him were rookies/2nd year players still developing?

2) With Bradford down, followed by Jake Long, we had monstrously glaring weaknesses at three positions, so bad that they were enough to pull down the entire team - at QB, at C, and at RG. Teams exploited the hell out of that, especially the latter two, in the second half of the season. There are other factors to be sure, but these weakness do more to explain our offensive ineptitude than any other factor.

3) On defense, we spent the first half of the season learning a new defense, and there were clearly growing pains. But in the second half, our defense was near elite at times. We put the clamps down on Manning and the Broncos, holding them to the fewest points they've scored since Manning came to them, and the fewest points any Manning-led offense has scored in a decade. Pitched two shutouts in a row at one point. Held the 49ers to 10 points in their own house despite our own offensive ineptitude on the same day. Held the Seahawks to 13 points in their house, also with an offense that was struggling mightily. Save for the Giants game, the Rams defense played great during the second half of the season, much of it without a key player (Chris Long). Yet PFF wants me to believe they did that with a bunch of starters who were mostly average to below average.

4) With Ogletree, they cite missed tackles, but how many of those occurred during the first half of the season when they were still learning the new defense vs. the second half? 'Tree's play improved noticeably during the second half of the season.

5) Quick - given his injury, an incomplete would have been a better rating. But average? This is a guy who was on pace for over 80 catches and over 1000 yards receiving ... with Austin Davis as his QB. I have a sneaking suspicion that the same Quick we had last year, pre-injury, would have had a much higher rating with Bradford under center. And good lord, what would his rating have been for a full, healthy season with a known elite QB like Rodgers, Brady, or Peyton throwing him passes? I'll bet dollars to donuts it would be a lot higher than average.

6) Britt - he wasn't listed, but I'm sure they would have had him as just average. Yet this is a guy who almost everybody agrees is a "must" sign for the Rams after the numbers he put up last year - with Austin Davis and Shaun Hill throwing to him.

7) Ridiculous to rate Robinson as poor. I could see below average, but with caveat that he was a rookie learning the ropes. It's not like he was a disaster, and he certainly was not the weak link on the OL, even at OT. And there really wasn't much dropoff, if any, after he took over for Jake Long.

8) I can agree with them on Givens and Austin, neither of them is where they should be right now.

9) Barron's another guy who should get an incomplete. How can they even know what we've got with him? He was playing out of his normal position last year and has a small sample size to boot. Furthermore, in Tampa Bay, he was playing in a defense that did not suit his strengths, which one reason we got him in the first place. So considering those factors, how can you put any stock in PFF's ranking of him?

10) And finally, the fact that they don't have a "Gawd Awful" category to put Scott Wells into should also make one question their ratings.

In short, PFF's ratings appear to have been done in isolation based on a few easily obtainable metrics while not looking at the bigger picture. Bradford under a competent center with a competent RG last year would have probably boosted the ratings of most of the offense last year. Had they not spent a good chunk of the season learning a new D, but instead had been in this system for a year, the ratings of almost every defensive player would have been higher. Heck if you just isolate the second half of the season from the first, they should all be higher.

I stick by what I said. Bernie's article is flawed because he lazily relied on PFF rankings, which are at best, highly flawed. I have no problem giving Bernie credit when he writes a good column, and there are many times he does just that. But this column was a piece of sh!t.
 

Afro Ram

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While I agree with the basics of this, and you've been around me long enough to know that I don't do the name calling thing, there's a difference between Bernie and Kevin Demoff and how they're treated here.

KD is a member of ROD and part of the Rams staff. Bernie is not. KD is polite. Bernie is not. The snide remarks he makes about Rams fans in almost every one of his articles, leaves him wide open for the type of vitriol he gets. There's a reason his articles were banned here for awhile. The responses created a bad vibe. Maybe it's time to do that again and this time permanently.

I don't like the guy either, but I thinking banning his stuff is a little extreme. Just my vote.
 

Sum1

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Some of you are so blinded by your misguided hate of Bernie that you failed to see that he clear as day said he doesn't agree with with all of the evaluations.

...but yeah, Bernie obviously hates the team and doesn't realize how great this 6-10 really is.

o_O
 

Prime Time

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I don't like the guy either, but I thinking banning his stuff is a little extreme. Just my vote.

Duly noted. But his articles seem to create a firestorm of negativity and at some point one has to wonder whether it's worth it to allow his articles to be posted here. This thread is exhibit A. Maybe he should have his own sticky that comes attached with a warning label - beware all ye who enter here. :sneaky:
 

Legatron4

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I guess that would depend on what you think is "consistently" and how many games (how large the data pool) you would consider to be enough. 4 games? 8 games? 12 games?

As for liking Bernie, I don't particularly like him or his stuff. I defend him because I'm so tired of people talking crap about other people because they can get away with it on the internet. People talk crap here about Demoff and management rightfully gets upset about that and asked that we desist because he's been very good to the ROD and he reads us. Plus it's the right thing to do anyway. Why is the same standard not being met with Bernie? Do we base our conduct on how much they contribute to the ROD (not talking about money)? People come to a thread that has Bernie in the title just to bad mouth him and it pisses me off. I'd do the same for any other sports writer.

How many times do posters have to tell many of us that they don't like or read his stuff (but do it anyway). Maybe if posters would just type it louder we'd understand better.
I know what you mean man, I really do. I don't think it's necessary for people bash him just because. But I legit don't enjoy his articles. He just seems like a jerk to me. I still read his stuff because he's basically the only Rams writer.to be honest though I've never seen anyone bad mouth Demoff. He's the best thing that's ever happened to this organization. But maybe I havent paid attention enough.
 

Alan

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Prime Time missing my direction:
While I agree with the basics of this, and you've been around me long enough to know that I don't do the name calling thing, there's a difference between Bernie and Kevin Demoff and how they're treated here.

KD is a member of ROD and part of the Rams staff. Bernie is not. KD is polite. Bernie is not. The snide remarks he makes about Rams fans in almost every one of his articles, leaves him wide open for the type of vitriol he gets. There's a reason his articles were banned here for awhile. The responses created a bad vibe. Maybe it's time to do that again and this time permanently.
That comment of mine wasn't aimed in your direction. Or anyone else in management/ownership. That was a reminder to some of my fellow posters about what they said in that discussion.
 

Thordaddy

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Bernie ISN"T relying on them, he's commenting on them and coming to the conclusion that whether you agree with them or not, we aren't where we should be after three years armed with a plethora of high picks.

Again I have to ask, did you even read the whole thing? Is so, how did you miss stuff like this:
"As much as I respect the crew at Pro Football Focus for their excellent and diligent work, I don't agree with all of their opinions. Two quickie examples: I think defensive end RobertQuinn is an elite player — not a "very good" player. I don't see how QB SamBradford can receive an "average" grade when he's missed the last 25 regular-season games. Bradford hasn't played in a real game since Oct. 20 of the 2013 season. So how do we know? " So those are just two quick examples of stuff he disagrees with PFF about which means there are even more he didn't mention. The guy basically agrees with your take on some of the PFF grades and you dis him? :LOL:

Sometimes, certain writing styles lend themselves to misreadings. Many of you don't seem to be reading the same article I am. ;)

Sorry Al but just because Bernie throws you a bone here and there in a column it doesn't change the overall perception Bernie has cultivated. There are people in ALL of our lives who after enough experiences with them you realize if they occasionally trumpet like a swan they're still just a duck.
FWIW Bernie gets judged as a whole ,or is it an ahole here , because he is known to be an agent provocateur who takes stands that others would be called a troll for posting , but whatever someones opinion of Bernie or what they say about his columns doesn't piss me off and Bernie only deserves the respect he shows which is precious little.

If a vote to ban Bernie were to be taken I'd vote no, because if I don't like his content I am free to ignore it as we all are on anyone elses, Bernie and I have personal history we don't like each other and I reserve the right to bad mouth him at will
 

Yamahopper

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You know, sometimes when a team pick comes up in they're fresh out of Elite players to chose from.
 

Alan

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thirteen28 with a with good points about PFF:
I stick by what I said. Bernie's article is flawed because he lazily relied on PFF rankings, which are at best, highly flawed. I have no problem giving Bernie credit when he writes a good column, and there are many times he does just that. But this column was a piece of sh!t.
You make a compelling case about many of PFF's rankings and I agree with many of them. However, I wasn't addressing that part of your post, I was addressing the part where you said that Bernie was relying on their rankings to make his point. How do you write about a set of rankings without using the rankings? I don't call that relying on them and furthermore, he specifically said you can throw them out completely and made his own case for why the Ram brain trust has not done a great job with the resources at their disposal. I still think you're misreading him in this article.
Here's what I read:

He publishes their rankings for our players.

He goes out of his way with this to say this about thier rankings: "Of course, this is only PFF's assessment. (Click here to see the chart.) The Rams internally may have different (and better) grades on their players. The same could be said of other independent evaluators — as is always the instance in subjective analyses."

He immediately goes on to say that he disagrees with many of them: "As much as I respect the crew at Pro Football Focus for their excellent and diligent work, I don't agree with all of their opinions. Two quickie examples: I think defensive endRobertQuinn is an elite player — not a "very good" player. I don't see how QB SamBradford can receive an "average" grade when he's missed the last 25 regular-season games. Bradford hasn't played in a real game since Oct. 20 of the 2013 season. So how do we know? "

He then goes on to analyze what he thinks those rankings say about the Rams personnel.

He adds in many of his own stats, not having to do with their evaluations at all, and comes to some conclusions.

He then ends with his final comments that specifically address your concerns about PFF's rankings: "You can quibble over these PFF rankings _ or throw them out completely. It doesn't matter to me. But if you put much stock in these independent Pro Football Focus evaluations, then you'd have to conclude that Snead-Fisher have missed a chance to fully exploit the bonanza of draft picks they had at their disposal over the past three years. There's no doubt that Snead-Fisher have upgraded the Rams roster. They just didn't improve it as much as they should have."

Where is the "laziness"?
 

Alan

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Yamahopper noting the reality of the situation:
You know, sometimes when a team pick comes up in they're fresh out of Elite players to chose from.
True Yamahopper but we;re not talking about just getting elite players, I would like to see more good/very good players when so many of your picks are that high.

Which of these players that -X- mentioned we drafted in the first three rounds do you think are in any of the top three categories?

Brockers, Quick, Jenkins, Johnson, Austin, Ogletree, McDonald, Robinson, Donald, Joyner
 

Corbin

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True Yamahopper but we;re not talking about just getting elite players, I would like to see more good/very good players when so many of your picks are that high.

Which of these players that -X- mentioned we drafted in the first three rounds do you think are in any of the top three categories?

Brockers, Quick, Jenkins, Johnson, Austin, Ogletree, McDonald, Robinson, Donald, Joyner

I'd have to say Austin can be beast with someone who wants to use him...

Thanks Schotty
 

Alan

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Thordaddy with this:
Sorry Al but just because Bernie throws you a bone here and there in a column it doesn't change the overall perception Bernie has cultivated. There are people in ALL of our lives who after enough experiences with them you realize if they occasionally trumpet like a swan they're still just a duck.
FWIW Bernie gets judged as a whole ,or is it an ahole here , because he is known to be an agent provocateur who takes stands that others would be called a troll for posting , but whatever someones opinion of Bernie or what they say about his columns doesn't pee pee me off and Bernie only deserves the respect he shows which is precious little.

If a vote to ban Bernie were to be taken I'd vote no, because if I don't like his content I am free to ignore it as we all are on anyone elses, Bernie and I have personal history we don't like each other and I reserve the right to bad mouth him at will
So because he's not well liked it's OK to call him a lazy, fat, jackass and so on in a public forum? Sorry, there is no such thing as situational ethics and standards. You either have them or you don't. It was wrong to stoop to name calling in this case, it was wrong in Demoff's case and it will be wrong to stoop to name calling in every other case.
 

Alan

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Corbin stealing my red font:
I'd have to say Austin can be beast with someone who wants to use him...
:LOL:

That's surely what we all hope and I believe, like you, that they're not using him correctly. I have the same high hopes for Quick but to be honest about this, only Donald and Brockers and maybe TJ (iffy in my mind) have shown any actual propensity to get into any of those top three categories. Even if they all make it to the "good" category, is that a good enough result for 13 picks in the top three rounds with 6 of them first rounders?
 

jrry32

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I thought we had a Bernie-Ban.

This. I didn't read the article because it's from Bernie. And I have no respect for his football "knowledge"(or lack thereof).

But I think we're all quite aware the Rams need talent at certain spots on offense. Now, the defense on the other hand...no. I don't care what PFF or Bernie or anyone else says. Football is a team game and a defense is a sum of its parts...not its parts as individuals. What cannot be argued is that despite being in their first year in a very complex system, our defense finished top 5 in DPPG Allowed and #7 in Points Per Drive Allowed. What does all that mean? Two things...1) our Overall Points Allowed ranking is significantly weighed down by our embarrassing and historically terrible amount of points given up by our offense(through pick sixes and fumble TDs) and special teams. And 2) Our defense was a kick ass unit last year that should only get better in 2015.
 

Thordaddy

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So because he's not well liked it's OK to call him a lazy, fat, jackass and so on in a public forum? Sorry, there is no such thing as situational ethics and standards. You either have them or you don't. It was wrong to stoop to name calling in this case, it was wrong in Demoff's case and it will be wrong to stoop to name calling in every other case.

Well if it's true it's true , and I'd call him that in private as well :cool: refering to people as stooping and or having situational ethics is JUST as judgmental and inflammatory,if it offends you then you are free to say so, but IMO the imposition of right and wrong here or to establish a code of ethics is not a single persons pervue.
Bernie is well known for carrying out vendetta's and ya know sometimes you can't say things better than a good old F U or STFU.

FWIW if the mods have a problem with responses here they'll say so, if his articles raise ire among people adequately to disrupt this forum to the vast majority of members I respect their right to ban him or for anyone to boycott the forum of they don't like the decision but there are no ultimate truths here
 

Alan

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Thordaddy with this:
Well if it's true it's true , and I'd call him that in private as well :cool:

I don't care what you call him or anyone else in private and it has nothing to do with this conversation. Or at least my part of this conversation.

refering to people as stooping and or having situational ethics is JUST as judgmental and inflammatory,if it offends you then you are free to say so, but IMO the imposition of right and wrong here or to establish a code of ethics is not a single persons pervue.

I didn't refer to anyone as having situational ethics or about anyone stooping to anything. I was referring to your statement that just because Bernie is a jerk it's OK to call him names. It's either OK to call someone else bad names in public or it isn't. If that shoe fits anyone then like all general statements, it is what it is but I'm not ascribing that to anyone per se, I'm just ascribing that to the behavior. I do judge that type of behavior though. As do we all.

Bernie is well known for carrying out vendetta's and ya know sometimes you can't say things better than a good old F U or STFU.

No, I don't know that. That's just an excuse for one's own bad behavior IMO.

FWIW if the mods have a problem with responses here they'll say so, if his articles raise ire among people adequately to disrupt this forum to the vast majority of members I respect their right to ban him or for anyone to boycott the forum of they don't like the decision but there are no ultimate truths here

I'm not talking about what the mods are doing, did or what they might do. I'm talking about each individual poster taking responsibility for their own actions. Many, if not most of the posts in the Demoff thread talked about how it was wrong to resort to name calling and I was merely reminding everyone one of that. Just because Demoff seems to be a stand up guy and many perceive Bernie to be lacking in that department is immaterial to the ethics and principles involved. IMO.

This isn't just about Bernie either. Florio often gets called names too. Basically it's just calling people you don't like names. Disagreeing with them is fine. Stating why you disagree with them is even better. Name calling and other verbal abuse IS NEVER FINE with me.
 

Dr C. Hill

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So, if the great PFF has Tim Barnes rated as "average", cant the Rams resign him and let the "poor" Scott Wells walk and save some dough and dignity?

I don't see how you can even rank Bradford, Barnes, or the Long's anyway based on last years sample size. I know a ton of people kneel at the alter of PFF, but I just can't do it. In fact I think the people who do, more often than not, use it as a crutch to further an agenda. There is no statistical metric that can accurately rank Bradford or Long's play the last two seasons.