A Tale of Three Gashes; The Los Angeles Rams Run Defense

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bubbaramfan

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Rams will win field position battle with Hekker and Cooper. Better kickoff and FG % w/ Zurlien. Rams lead league with 19 turnovers in 9 games, most likely will force at least one turnover by Vikes. Vikes sacks came against bottom feeders. Rams have only given up single diget sacks. Rams 5-0 away from home.

I like Rams chances in this one.
 
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Raptorman

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It's limited to three, that's the rule. :)

Your team is going to be tested in every phase of the game.

On defense because you haven't played a team that can score like the Rams.

Also on ST's where the Rams are superior while the Vikings are ranked middle of the pack.

Your teams offense has been consistent lately and CK is playing well but this is by far (seriously WAY by far) the best defensive unit they have faced.

Just keep your feet on the ground though. The Rams are #1 in points scored, #3 in fewest points allowed and #1 in ST's ranking. I'd bet that every single one of the Vikings coaches wishes this game wasn't on their schedule this week since the Rams seem to be hitting stride.

It's probably going to be a great game, and entertaining as hell. Afterwards we can have some good discussion, you seem like a smart fan and obviously love your team.

Take 3 only. Okay, let's take the Rams 3 highest scoring games out of the equation and they end up with a 26.3 points a game scoring offense. Pretty good. But I'm sure he Colts, Niners and Giants defense's are top notch. After all they are giving up an average of (in order) 28, 26.4 and 26 points per games.

Of the top 15 teams in defense for points the Rams have played 2 of those teams winning 1 of two. The Vikings have played 4, winning 3. Now, don't get me wrong this is going to be a tough game for both teams. Both will be tested. Below is the list of the bottom 10 teams in scoring defense. Rams have played 6, the Vikings have played 2. I would expect you team to have scored more points than the Vikings. If they hadn't, you guys would have a big problem on your hands.


Code:
23 Arizona Cardinals 24.8
24 Miami Dolphins 24.9
25 Tennessee Titans 25.3
26 Washington Redskins 25.8
27 San Francisco 49ers 26
28 New York Giants 26.4
29 Denver Broncos 26.6
30 Cleveland Browns 26.7
31 Houston Texans 26.8
32 Indianapolis Colts 28
 

LesBaker

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Rams have only given up single diget sacks.

It's a big deal that the Rams aren't taking a lot of sacks.

And Goff gets plenty of credit, he has shown that he is willing to throw it away and waste the down cleanly versus taking a sack and wasting the down with a loss and making McVay's job as a play caller harder by adding 7-10 yards to the down and distance.
 

FrantikRam

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Actually, if Bradford wasn't hurt, there would be. Had Bradford not hurt his knee, Keenum would be number 3. The only reason for him not being there is that he had surgery the week Bridgewater came back.

Still, were would the Rams be with their Number 2 QB and Gurley out?


Not too far off from where the Vikings are. We have an elite defense and special teams unit too - and neither of our schedules have been remotely difficult.
 

Mackeyser

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Wow. What a great idea. So, if I take the three biggest rushes against the Vikings this year and subtract them from the overall total this is what I get.


29 A.Abdullah left end to 50 for 29 yards
26 I.Crowell right guard for 26 yards,
19 M.Campanaro right end to BLT 44 for 19 yards

74 yards. 732-74=658 658/212 = 3.1 yards per carry. Good for moving up to 2nd in total yardage and at 3.1 YPC, tied for first.

I should do this for passing yards as well. Tell me, is it limited to 3 or can I use 5?

Well, this right here demonstrates the lack of understanding between median and mean (average).

If one running back runs for 100 yards on 1 run and 9 others run for zero on one run, then the median is 10 ypc for running backs and the mean is zero.

Especially because the Vikes haven't given up any unusual big runs which would be outliers to the data set, those runs really don't change anything much nor do they establish a narrative.

The point in saying about specifically three runs out of 200+ is that just over 1% of the runs account for 20% of the total yardage. 3 runs!

So the mean is what it is. We average 118 per game. The median is 111.

However, the point is that if we understand that in football because so much is played at a high level that the smallest things can manifest as the difference, then things like scheme adaptation, weekly improvement, player health and game day execution all factor in.

Now, if someone is going to analyze the Vikings Run defense, the improvements have more to do with 2nd level contain. It's much more about not letting small runs become the 10-20 yard runs.

With the Rams, it's about gap responsibility and assignment execution because, as the data shows, other than that the Rams have been pretty solid.

Here's how you can tell there are outliers. If the median and mean aren't close, there's your sign. Currently the median and mean for the Rams Run D has a delta of 7 ypg. That's kind of a lot. When those 3 runs are removed as outliers, the median is 94 ypg and the mean is 95 ypg. That shows a coherent data set.

The point is that if the Rams are consistently at 95 ypg with no big runs and they want to improve their Run D, they have to take certain steps. If they are consistently playing at 95 ypg and on 3 defensive plays, there have been breakdowns, be they schematic or execution, then that's a different fix.

Moreover, on any given play, the median is MUCH MORE likely an indication of what will happen. If a team routinely doesn't give up yards and about 1% of the time gives up a big run, then that means opponents are relying on not only having that 1% happen for them, but also that the play in question will manifest in points.

It's not just about manipulating numbers. It's about understanding what they mean in context.

Hope this helps.
 

den-the-coach

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You should always avoid alliteration.

:hiding:

IDK, worked well for the likes of Robert Redford, Danny Devito, Boris Becker, Sylvester Stallone, Amy Adams, Veronica Varekova...Woodrow Wilson, Ronald Reagan, Calvin Coolidge not so well for Herbert Hoover and you might go down in flames just like Jesse James.
 

LesBaker

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Take 3 only. Okay, let's take the Rams 3 highest scoring games out of the equation and they end up with a 26.3 points a game scoring offense. Pretty good. But I'm sure he Colts, Niners and Giants defense's are top notch. After all they are giving up an average of (in order) 28, 26.4 and 26 points per games.

Of the top 15 teams in defense for points the Rams have played 2 of those teams winning 1 of two. The Vikings have played 4, winning 3. Now, don't get me wrong this is going to be a tough game for both teams. Both will be tested. Below is the list of the bottom 10 teams in scoring defense. Rams have played 6, the Vikings have played 2. I would expect you team to have scored more points than the Vikings. If they hadn't, you guys would have a big problem on your hands.


Code:
23 Arizona Cardinals 24.8
24 Miami Dolphins 24.9
25 Tennessee Titans 25.3
26 Washington Redskins 25.8
27 San Francisco 49ers 26
28 New York Giants 26.4
29 Denver Broncos 26.6
30 Cleveland Browns 26.7
31 Houston Texans 26.8
32 Indianapolis Colts 28

It's true, what you are saying can't be denied. Though I was joking about the rule being taking three because I agree with your feelings that you have to count everything when looking at multiple games. Maybe in a one game situation like JAX you could make an argument to take out the 75 yard TD run and look what the Rams defense did after that first JAX drive.

I think what we are both saying is that neither team has been thoroughly tested. We can use a lot of metrics to make a case for either team having an edge. My feeling is each team is about to play the best, by far, team that they have faced so far. I feel the Rams have some advantages, maybe I'm a bit of a homer but that's OK. I'm not insinuating that they are "clearly superior" or should easily win the game 34-10 or whatever.

Looking at some things a bit more deeply the FG unit may make a difference. I say that because I think I read that MINN is excellent in the red zone on not giving up TD's and McVay, while he seems to have corrected things sort of for the last two weeks, has brain farted and left points on the field.

Keenum is the key on the Vikings O because if he is playing well it's going to be a fight. If he plays a clunker, which he has done 3 times this year, the Rams will make him pay. If he plays like he did last week and to a degree the week before it gives the Vikings a pretty good chance to win, he's really doing a good job overall IMO. I wish the Rams had kept him.
 

Mackeyser

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Take 3 only. Okay, let's take the Rams 3 highest scoring games out of the equation and they end up with a 26.3 points a game scoring offense. Pretty good. But I'm sure he Colts, Niners and Giants defense's are top notch. After all they are giving up an average of (in order) 28, 26.4 and 26 points per games.

Of the top 15 teams in defense for points the Rams have played 2 of those teams winning 1 of two. The Vikings have played 4, winning 3. Now, don't get me wrong this is going to be a tough game for both teams. Both will be tested. Below is the list of the bottom 10 teams in scoring defense. Rams have played 6, the Vikings have played 2. I would expect you team to have scored more points than the Vikings. If they hadn't, you guys would have a big problem on your hands.


Code:
23 Arizona Cardinals 24.8
24 Miami Dolphins 24.9
25 Tennessee Titans 25.3
26 Washington Redskins 25.8
27 San Francisco 49ers 26
28 New York Giants 26.4
29 Denver Broncos 26.6
30 Cleveland Browns 26.7
31 Houston Texans 26.8
32 Indianapolis Colts 28

You're not removing the bias.

In order to do an analysis, you'd have to remove the Rams' games from their points allowed total. That is a better indication.

What this shows with the Rams games allows for the performance of the Rams to essentially damage the Rams ranking because the more the Rams score, the worse their opponents look.
 

Raptorman

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It's true, what you are saying can't be denied. Though I was joking about the rule being taking three because I agree with your feelings that you have to count everything when looking at multiple games. Maybe in a one game situation like JAX you could make an argument to take out the 75 yard TD run and look what the Rams defense did after that first JAX drive.

I think what we are both saying is that neither team has been thoroughly tested. We can use a lot of metrics to make a case for either team having an edge. My feeling is each team is about to play the best, by far, team that they have faced so far. I feel the Rams have some advantages, maybe I'm a bit of a homer but that's OK. I'm not insinuating that they are "clearly superior" or should easily win the game 34-10 or whatever.

Looking at some things a bit more deeply the FG unit may make a difference. I say that because I think I read that MINN is excellent in the red zone on not giving up TD's and McVay, while he seems to have corrected things sort of for the last two weeks, has brain farted and left points on the field.

Keenum is the key on the Vikings O because if he is playing well it's going to be a fight. If he plays a clunker, which he has done 3 times this year, the Rams will make him pay. If he plays like he did last week and to a degree the week before it gives the Vikings a pretty good chance to win, he's really doing a good job overall IMO. I wish the Rams had kept him.
3 times? Really? 2 at most. Pittsburgh and Detroit. Pitt we won't lay on him because he was thrown in at the last minute. Actually he has done really well. Name another back up that has 11 TD's and 5 interceptions (and 2 of those were not his fault) with a 92.9 passer rating. Here's the thing, if Case starts playing poorly, they can always yank him an let Teddy play. Going to happen sooner or later.
 

Raptorman

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You're not removing the bias.

In order to do an analysis, you'd have to remove the Rams' games from their points allowed total. That is a better indication.

What this shows with the Rams games allows for the performance of the Rams to essentially damage the Rams ranking because the more the Rams score, the worse their opponents look.
Normally I would but I'm not being real serious on the issue. More of banter back and forth kinda thing.
 

nighttrain

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3 times? Really? 2 at most. Pittsburgh and Detroit. Pitt we won't lay on him because he was thrown in at the last minute. Actually he has done really well. Name another back up that has 11 TD's and 5 interceptions (and 2 of those were not his fault) with a 92.9 passer rating. Here's the thing, if Case starts playing poorly, they can always yank him an let Teddy play. Going to happen sooner or later.
this week:homercrawl::rolllaugh::D:rolleyes:
 

FarNorth

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3 times? Really? 2 at most. Pittsburgh and Detroit. Pitt we won't lay on him because he was thrown in at the last minute. Actually he has done really well. Name another back up that has 11 TD's and 5 interceptions (and 2 of those were not his fault) with a 92.9 passer rating. Here's the thing, if Case starts playing poorly, they can always yank him an let Teddy play. Going to happen sooner or later.
Sorry guys, arguing over statistics does nothing for me. What I would say is that the Rams gave up more runs early because they were not playing the gaps in the new 3-4 correctly at times and were breaking in a new safety (Johnson). The Rams have more speed than power at lb, but have recently shown they are good enough to stop the run while harassing the qb and forcing turnovers. We'll see if they can do that against the Vikes, but if so Case Keenum will have a very long day in my opinion.
 

Mackeyser

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Normally I would but I'm not being real serious on the issue. More of banter back and forth kinda thing.

Fair enough.

Understand, tho, that unlike the Detroit Lions and Seahawks, the Rams are blowing out the teams with poor defenses.

I mean the Giants are struggling, but our 51 points against them skew things a bit.

It's the 2nd part of our season now where other than AZ, I think most of the rest of our schedule are playoff teams.
 

LesBaker

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3 times? Really? 2 at most. Pittsburgh and Detroit. Pitt we won't lay on him because he was thrown in at the last minute. Actually he has done really well. Name another back up that has 11 TD's and 5 interceptions (and 2 of those were not his fault) with a 92.9 passer rating. Here's the thing, if Case starts playing poorly, they can always yank him an let Teddy play. Going to happen sooner or later.

Baltimore. He did just OK v. Green Bay too. So PITT is a wash it's clear he can run hot and cold. I've been watching him a lot more than you have.

I don't really consider him a back-up by the way, he has more experience as a starter and I am giving him the credit he deserves.

I don't see the Vikings wanting to insert TB in his first game back if the Rams defense is making Keenum play poorly.
 

Rmfnlt

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I agree with this... except when it comes to the Rams :LOL:
On the other side though, I would guess you could probably do the same thing with most teams, taking some seeming aberrations out of the equation and then seeing a totally different set of numbers...

The defensive stat I worry about is Points per game ... we currently give up 18 per ... good for 3rd in the league .. and with an offense averaging 30 per game ...
Yup... run all day on us if, after all of that, you only get 18 points... 'cause we're scoring 30 on ya. :LOL: BTW... the MINN defense is very well respected. They give up and average of 18.3 points per game. The Rams? 18.0. Interesting.

Those three runs were TDs too.
I don't think Morris took it to the house.

I should do this for passing yards as well. Tell me, is it limited to 3 or can I use 5?
Nope... the logic and analysis has been patented by @Farr Be It
 
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Ram65

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I don't think Morris took it to the house.

That's right Webster caught him around the 5 yard line.

TEAM...YARDS..LONG RUN...PLAYER
  1. Indy.....75...........(24)...........Mack
  2. Wash..229..........(61)..........Thompson
  3. S.F.....113...........(20)..........Hyde
  4. Dal.....189...........(70)..........Morris
  5. Sea.....62............(9)............Wilson
  6. Jax.....169...........(75)..........Fournette
  7. Ariz......25.............(6)..........Peterson
  8. NYG...111..........(24)..........Darkwa
  9. Hou.....89...........(21)...........L. Miller
These outliers have been brutal!

  1. Wash..229..........(61)..........Thompson= 168 yards
  2. Dal.....189...........(70)..........Morris= === 119 yards
  3. Jax.....169...........(75)..........Fournette===94 yards.
Even taking away the big three runs these teams still had success against the Rams running the ball. I don't think you can take out big runs and make a case for the Rams. There is a pattern of letting up big runs. There is a pattern of giving up yards on the ground earlier in games too.

The good news is the Vikings are only averaging 3.9 yards per carry for 20th position in the league. That's not lighting it up. They average per game 118 yards and that makes them #10 in the league. That makes me feel more confident that the Rams can keep the Vikings running game contained. The Vikings aren't the Cowboys nor Jacksonville.
 

ausmurp

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Actually, if Bradford wasn't hurt, there would be. Had Bradford not hurt his knee, Keenum would be number 3. The only reason for him not being there is that he had surgery the week Bridgewater came back.

Still, were would the Rams be with their Number 2 QB and Gurley out?

Take injuries away then.. if no injuries here, Gurley way way better than Cook, Goff way way better than Bradford. You'll argue the latter I'm sure but the proof is in the stats Bradford has always been a check down short yardage junkie with a floppy shoulder and glass like bones. Goff is the exact opposite. Goff is a top 5 QB in YPA and 3rd down conversions. With the 2 other elite pass D's under his belt both of which he beat (I count Seahags as a W for Goff bc a dropped perfect pass in stride in endzone would've won - refuse to put that on Goff).
 

T-REX

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Well, this right here demonstrates the lack of understanding between median and mean (average).

If one running back runs for 100 yards on 1 run and 9 others run for zero on one run, then the median is 10 ypc for running backs and the mean is zero.

Especially because the Vikes haven't given up any unusual big runs which would be outliers to the data set, those runs really don't change anything much nor do they establish a narrative.

The point in saying about specifically three runs out of 200+ is that just over 1% of the runs account for 20% of the total yardage. 3 runs!

So the mean is what it is. We average 118 per game. The median is 111.

However, the point is that if we understand that in football because so much is played at a high level that the smallest things can manifest as the difference, then things like scheme adaptation, weekly improvement, player health and game day execution all factor in.

Now, if someone is going to analyze the Vikings Run defense, the improvements have more to do with 2nd level contain. It's much more about not letting small runs become the 10-20 yard runs.

With the Rams, it's about gap responsibility and assignment execution because, as the data shows, other than that the Rams have been pretty solid.

Here's how you can tell there are outliers. If the median and mean aren't close, there's your sign. Currently the median and mean for the Rams Run D has a delta of 7 ypg. That's kind of a lot. When those 3 runs are removed as outliers, the median is 94 ypg and the mean is 95 ypg. That shows a coherent data set.

The point is that if the Rams are consistently at 95 ypg with no big runs and they want to improve their Run D, they have to take certain steps. If they are consistently playing at 95 ypg and on 3 defensive plays, there have been breakdowns, be they schematic or execution, then that's a different fix.

Moreover, on any given play, the median is MUCH MORE likely an indication of what will happen. If a team routinely doesn't give up yards and about 1% of the time gives up a big run, then that means opponents are relying on not only having that 1% happen for them, but also that the play in question will manifest in points.

It's not just about manipulating numbers. It's about understanding what they mean in context.

Hope this helps.
 

Riverumbbq

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Actually, if Bradford wasn't hurt, there would be. Had Bradford not hurt his knee, Keenum would be number 3. The only reason for him not being there is that he had surgery the week Bridgewater came back.

Still, were would the Rams be with their Number 2 QB and Gurley out?

Not saying it's apples to apples, but the Rams have lost their expected starter at LDE in Dominique Easley, which has since caused a good deal of grief & jockeying on the D-Line. We also lost our # 2 RB just a couple weeks ago. Not sure whether our once star DE/OLB Robert Quinn will be back for this game either. jmo.