4th and 1 from the 1

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Thordaddy

Binding you with ancient logic
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Apr 5, 2012
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Name
Rich
You are only "right" if the play works, a play that was never tried can't prove the one that was used was wrong because OF COURSE... it didn't have the chance to fail.

This preoccupation with right and wrong is tedious.

There were several "right" plays that put the offense in the position to have those opportunities,those are an indication of competence that is just discounted as givens in order to criticize a fraction of the whole.
IMO most of those who question this way would never get them into the position where the calls they criticize would be relevant, IOW first prove to me you won't go three and out consistently ,then I'll consider the qualifications to elevate said kibitzer as authority to adjudicate.
Disclaimer: This post is not aimed at one poster rather at a practice that contains assumptions that can't be proven as in "wrong call" all calls are made with the expectation they will be executed as planned, one,just one player who under performs on a play call can make it fail.

I.E. Jared Cook went into the pattern when he could have slid in and chipped the blitzing DB who tipped the pass on our last offensive play,or broke his out pattern in and given Hill a target not over the blitzer. We could and IMO probably would have gotten a first down on that play IF Cook made either of those adjustments ,when a play fails it is just as likely someone got beat by the opposing player as anything.
 

RamzFanz

Damnit
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That pass play was a play-fake, and Cunningham got absolutely stuffed on it. Two plays earlier Mason (who runs just as hard) got stuffed too. There's very little guarantee that any of our RBs would have gotten a yard in that situation. In fact, if the situation was reversed, would you expect the Rams to give up a rushing TD on the one yard line? And wouldn't you also be in fear of a fake that sent two TE's out on drag routes?

I can't recall a single time this season that Bam Bam hasn't gotten a yard on two downs. Yes, he got stuffed on that play. Of course, he wasn't behind Harkey and Robinson either.

Would the Rams give up a 1 yard run on two downs? All day long. It's why goal line stands are rare and impressive. They've had some impressive goal line stands this season. I think they held for 7-8 plays one game. Still, that's the exception.

For me, it all comes down to the OT in their pocket and trusting the defense and special teams to keep us in a position to win especially with sudden death no longer the case on a first possession FG.

Two runs would be low risk, high success rate, using very good players, and with preserving the plan B. The pass was high risk using a back up QB behind a terrible pass rush O line on an easily defended short field against a good defense. If I recall correctly, they had already jumped a route for an INT that game and strip sacked SH. The outcome was fairly predictable.

I'm not hindsighting this. When I saw Cunningham go in motion, my heart sank.
 

-X-

Medium-sized Lebowski
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The Dude
I can't recall a single time this season that Bam Bam hasn't gotten a yard on two downs. Yes, he got stuffed on that play. Of course, he wasn't behind Harkey and Robinson either.

Would the Rams give up a 1 yard run on two downs? All day long. It's why goal line stands are rare and impressive. They've had some impressive goal line stands this season. I think they held for 7-8 plays one game. Still, that's the exception.

For me, it all comes down to the OT in their pocket and trusting the defense and special teams to keep us in a position to win.

Two runs would be low risk, high success rate, using very good players, and with preserving the plan B. The pass was high risk using a back up QB behind a terrible pass rush O line on an easily defended short field against a good defense. If I recall correctly, they had already jumped a route for an INT that game and strip sacked SH. The outcome was fairly predictable.

I'm not hindsighting this. When I saw Cunningham go in motion, my heart sank.
Fair enough. I don't really have a problem with the call, or the sequence of calls, but to each their own. (y)
 

RamzFanz

Damnit
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Jun 4, 2013
Messages
9,029
You are only "right" if the play works, a play that was never tried can't prove the one that was used was wrong because OF COURSE... it didn't have the chance to fail.

This preoccupation with right and wrong is tedious.

There were several "right" plays that put the offense in the position to have those opportunities,those are an indication of competence that is just discounted as givens in order to criticize a fraction of the whole.
IMO most of those who question this way would never get them into the position where the calls they criticize would be relevant, IOW first prove to me you won't go three and out consistently ,then I'll consider the qualifications to elevate said kibitzer as authority to adjudicate.
Disclaimer: This post is not aimed at one poster rather at a practice that contains assumptions that can't be proven as in "wrong call" all calls are made with the expectation they will be executed as planned, one,just one player who under performs on a play call can make it fail.

I.E. Jared Cook went into the pattern when he could have slid in and chipped the blitzing DB who tipped the pass on our last offensive play,or broke his out pattern in and given Hill a target not over the blitzer. We could and IMO probably would have gotten a first down on that play IF Cook made either of those adjustments ,when a play fails it is just as likely someone got beat by the opposing player as anything.

I find it tedious that people can't have theoretical discussions about a play without being told they are unqualified to have an opinion.
 

RamWoodie

Legend
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Jun 21, 2014
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Not to change the subject...but what's still eating at me is the SD game. You KNOW you can tie the game. You have a big back in Cunningham and you have Harkey to set at fullback. Instead of playing the percentages and going with the run knowing you can tie, you throw...and it gets PICKED OFF...:sick:
 

Boffo97

Still legal in 17 states!
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Dave
Not to change the subject...but what's still eating at me is the SD game. You KNOW you can tie the game. You have a big back in Cunningham and you have Harkey to set at fullback. Instead of playing the percentages and going with the run knowing you can tie, you throw...and it gets PICKED OFF...:sick:
That is what we're talking about.

It's just some of us, while we agree about the percentages, don't think it was a bad call. It's just a call that didn't work. It happens.

Show me a team that always plays the percentages, and I'll show you an 0-16 team.
 

RamWoodie

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That is what we're talking about.

It's just some of us, while we agree about the percentages, don't think it was a bad call. It's just a call that didn't work. It happens.

Show me a team that always plays the percentages, and I'll show you an 0-16 team.
It's still gnawing at me. I say take the 3 and go to OT.
 

Boffo97

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Dave
It's still gnawing at me. I say take the 3 and go to OT.
Well, of course you do things differently if you knew how it turned out.

If that pass gets completed, no one gives it a second thought though.
 

RamWoodie

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Well, of course you do things differently if you knew how it turned out.

If that pass gets completed, no one gives it a second thought though.
I agree with the standing that you play for OT away, you play to win at home. I think that's a solid approach.

I can tell you I WAS SHOCKED when I saw Hill passing, I just KNEW they were gonna run it.
 

RamzFanz

Damnit
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9,029
That is what we're talking about.

It's just some of us, while we agree about the percentages, don't think it was a bad call. It's just a call that didn't work. It happens.

Show me a team that always plays the percentages, and I'll show you an 0-16 team.

Show me a team that passes with 2 downs available from the one yard line against the Chargers defense using a backup QB who has already been intercepted and strip sacked behind a weak O line forgoing an almost sure OT with a strong D and special teams, and I'll show you a team that goes home with a loss. :sneaky: (just ribbing ya)

Seriously though, Schotty is good enough to win and I hope they keep him for the consistency of scheme next season. Dude can design a play. Perhaps he learns some things from this season along with everyone else. (y)
 

Thordaddy

Binding you with ancient logic
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10,462
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Rich
I find it tedious that people can't have theoretical discussions about a play without being told they are unqualified to have an opinion.
Let me clear that up for you then , everyone is qualified to have an opinion, so your finding is based upon an assumption that isn't accurate.

However labeling a play call as bad is not an opinion ,wrong isn't either ,I for one would have tried to bludgeon the ball into the endzone as well, and for most of the same reasons people who hold that position do.

My problem isn't the opinion, it's the concrete terms it is stated in which by their nature don't constitute "opinion", I don't read all your posts and since you took my post to task I'll give you an example of what I'm talking about.

You wrote: " but that it showed a complete lack of trust in Bam Bam to get a single yard, with two downs" things stated in absolute terms such as this aren't opinion, they are issued and taken as fact or attempts to establish them as such and WHEN offered as argument /discussion DO GO beyond the level of competence required to make them and back people into corners they feel obliged to defend.

Hope that clears up the misunderstanding(y)
 

Thordaddy

Binding you with ancient logic
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Apr 5, 2012
Messages
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Name
Rich
That is what we're talking about.

It's just some of us, while we agree about the percentages, don't think it was a bad call. It's just a call that didn't work. It happens.

Show me a team that always plays the percentages, and I'll show you an 0-16 team.
Which goes to the if ONE guy screws up a perfectly designed play fails,IMO Hill took the tight collar on that throw and I said " and that ladies and gentlemen is why IMO he's been a lifelong backup" . He's been in the league long enough to be discovered if he was much more, that said i have still always believed he or Davis were both adequate to produce a winning record provided they got the defensive support Hill has ,Thursday night chipped away at that position ,IMO every QB has some games like that "in them" backups just have more of them than true NFL starter caliber guys .
 

RamzFanz

Damnit
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Jun 4, 2013
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Let me clear that up for you then , everyone is qualified to have an opinion, so your finding is based upon an assumption that isn't accurate.

However labeling a play call as bad is not an opinion ,wrong isn't either ,I for one would have tried to bludgeon the ball into the endzone as well, and for most of the same reasons people who hold that position do.

My problem isn't the opinion, it's the concrete terms it is stated in which by their nature don't constitute "opinion", I don't read all your posts and since you took my post to task I'll give you an example of what I'm talking about.

You wrote: " but that it showed a complete lack of trust in Bam Bam to get a single yard, with two downs" things stated in absolute terms such as this aren't opinion, they are issued and taken as fact or attempts to establish them as such and WHEN offered as argument /discussion DO GO beyond the level of competence required to make them and back people into corners they feel obliged to defend.

Hope that clears up the misunderstanding(y)


"first prove to me you won't go three and out consistently ,then I'll consider the qualifications to elevate said kibitzer as authority to adjudicate."

Question: If they trusted Bam Bam to go a yard on two downs behind Harkey, why wouldn't they call it? What possible reason would they go away from a player they trusted to get a yard to a high risk play with OT, the game, and any playoff hopes on the line? The PROOF that they in FACT didn't trust him to go the yard is in that they didn't call it. Of course, that's just my opinion. The opinions of others may differ.

Can we all assume the posts on here are in fact opinion and not written by Schotty, Fisher, or Williams or do I need to start every post with a disclaimer?

DISCLAIMER: The above is an opinion by a non-professional who is not an NFL coach and never will be. These opinions are not necessarily the opinion of the NFL or the Rams football organization and should not be construed as fact. While based upon a true story, some of the facts have been altered for theoretical discussion and entertainment purposes.
 
Last edited:

iamme33

Pro Bowler
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Dec 24, 2013
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dan
Not to change the subject...but what's still eating at me is the SD game. You KNOW you can tie the game. You have a big back in Cunningham and you have Harkey to set at fullback. Instead of playing the percentages and going with the run knowing you can tie, you throw...and it gets PICKED OFF...:sick:

what if we had run it and there was a fumble that we lost. how many would be saying never play for the tie when you can play for the win
 

Thordaddy

Binding you with ancient logic
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Rich
"first prove to me you won't go three and out consistently ,then I'll consider the qualifications to elevate said kibitzer as authority to adjudicate."

Question: If they trusted Bam Bam to go a yard on two downs behind Harkey, why wouldn't they call it? What possible reason would they go away from a player they trusted to get a yard to a high risk play with OT, the game, and any playoff hopes on the line? The PROOF that they in FACT didn't trust him to go the yard is in that they didn't call it. Of course, that's just my opinion. The opinions of others may differ.

Can we all assume the posts on here are in fact opinion and not written by Schotty, Fisher, or Williams or do I need to start every post with a disclaimer?

DISCLAIMER: The following is an opinion by a non-professional who is not an NFL coach and never will be. These opinions are not necessarily the opinion of the NFL or the Rams football organization and should not be construed as fact. While based upon a true story, some of the facts have been altered for theoretical discussion and entertainment purposes.

I can and will respond to thoughts expressed in terms that depict them as what they are ,if stated as fact when intended to be opinion it would be simpler to add a few qualifiers here and there ,but if you want to , issue disclaimers of that nature .
I would also add the sheer volume of posts gives the impression that fact is the objective and capitulation of other posters is what is desired..
I'm done I'll give you the last word.
 

MrMotes

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May 6, 2014
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"first prove to me you won't go three and out consistently ,then I'll consider the qualifications to elevate said kibitzer as authority to adjudicate."

Question: If they trusted Bam Bam to go a yard on two downs behind Harkey, why wouldn't they call it? What possible reason would they go away from a player they trusted to get a yard to a high risk play with OT, the game, and any playoff hopes on the line? The PROOF that they in FACT didn't trust him to go the yard is in that they didn't call it. Of course, that's just my opinion. The opinions of others may differ.

Can we all assume the posts on here are in fact opinion and not written by Schotty, Fisher, or Williams or do I need to start every post with a disclaimer?

DISCLAIMER: The above is an opinion by a non-professional who is not an NFL coach and never will be. These opinions are not necessarily the opinion of the NFL or the Rams football organization and should not be construed as fact. While based upon a true story, some of the facts have been altered for theoretical discussion and entertainment purposes.

The thing is, it doesn't matter if any of us can out coach Fisher, GW, or BS, they're not competing against us. The question is can they out coach their competition. Based on the last 6 years, it's my opinion that BS cannot...
 

RamzFanz

Damnit
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Which goes to the if ONE guy screws up a perfectly designed play fails,IMO Hill took the tight collar on that throw and I said " and that ladies and gentlemen is why IMO he's been a lifelong backup" . He's been in the league long enough to be discovered if he was much more, that said i have still always believed he or Davis were both adequate to produce a winning record provided they got the defensive support Hill has ,Thursday night chipped away at that position ,IMO every QB has some games like that "in them" backups just have more of them than true NFL starter caliber guys .

DISCLAIMER: The following is an opinion by a non-professional who is not an NFL coach and never will be. These opinions are not necessarily the opinion of the NFL or the Rams football organization and should not be construed as fact. While based upon a true story, some of the facts have been altered for theoretical discussion and entertainment purposes.

I think I must be missing something. Maybe you could clear this up for me too:

Hill: In the final seconds of the game, on the shortest field a QB could possibly have, and against a solid pass defense, Hill makes an accurate throw to an open receiver on his third check down when a defender, who had been hiding out on the right side, runs in and jumps the route for an INT. Hill choked.

Davis: With 8 minutes left in the 4th quarter and down by just 3 points, after having an extra possession in the 3rdQ from a Rams interception, Davis throws an interception. The defense holds and gets the Ball back. Davis then throws a pick six. This is the defense's fault for making him play from behind and under pressure. Seven possessions in the second half with no score and 3 Rams' turnovers from Davis scoring 14 points directly, and it's the defense's fault?

My memory isn't what it used to be. Am I misrepresenting anything? Is that all in context as you demand of yourself? :rolleyes:
 

RamzFanz

Damnit
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what if we had run it and there was a fumble that we lost. how many would be saying never play for the tie when you can play for the win

Not me. The odds of that happening are so low you couldn't blame the call. Zero fumbles lost that very game by a RB and very very few this season. On the other hand, SH had already been strip sacked and intercepted that game.
 

-X-

Medium-sized Lebowski
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Messages
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The Dude
C'mon guys. Can we just assume that everyone here has a valid point?

Option A. Run the ball instead of throw it, and we probably win. (correct)
Option B. Run the ball instead of throw it, and we probably lose. (correct)
Option C. Not running it there was the wrong call (correct)
Option D. Not running it there was the right call (correct)

There. Now everybody wins, and sphincters board-wide can loosen up.
 

RamzFanz

Damnit
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@Thordaddy

You know what dude, I don't think Hill is a great QB or a QB I would select to lead the Rams, IMO. Just a decent backup, IMO. I also think Davis has potential, just not behind that line, IMO. I just don't appreciate when starting Rams players are slammed because of what appears to be blind bias, IMO. While I may be tiresome in my defense of Hill against the few who insist on, IMO, misrepresenting his play, I strive to be honest and fair in my opinions, IMO.

That game ended on a Hill INT, IMO. You've taken that one play and put the fault on him removing it from his body of work that game just as you accused others of doing a few posts back, IMO. Hill threw 2 TDs that were called back, IMO. He put them in FG range but it was blocked, IMO. He drove them down to the 4 yard line in the final minutes for a hope of a win or OT, IMO. It was a hell of a defensive play on an open receiver with an accurate throw, IMO. In my non-professional opinion, Schotty made a high risk play call that just wasn't necessary with everything on the line and put Hill in a bad position, IMO. Now he's being made the scapegoat IMO. That is the context, IMO.

The Arizona game? Not so much, IMO. I still think the play calling was unimaginative except for the very few interesting calls, but Hill threw a lot of bad passes, IMO. Five by my count, IMO.