2018 vs GSOT Receiving Corps

[Montanaramfan]

I've seen the question brought up in a few places so I thought I'd do some comparing. Here are the stats for the three GSOT receivers (and Faulk) and here are the numbers for our current crew (plus Gurley) extrapolated out to 16 games. I'm not sure if we can keep up this torrid pace, but these numbers would be historical. The fact that the three current receivers have 32, 33, and 34 targets between them tell me McVay is purposefully doing this to keep opposing defenses from keying on one go-to guy...another example of his genius. Here's my source, if anyone is interested. https://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/ram/1999.htm

*An argument could be made that you throw Ricky Proehl into that mix. He had 33/49 for 349 but 0 TD.

 

[LesBaker]

*An argument could be made that you throw Ricky Proehl into that mix. He had 33/49 for 349 but 0 TD.

A better comparison would be to use Faulk INSTEAD of Az to compare these three against todays top 3.

The fact that the three current receivers have 32, 33, and 34 targets between them tell me McVay is purposefully doing this to keep opposing defenses from keying on one go-to guy...another example of his genius.

Yes there is no #1 WR in his framework of passing attack. Different guys, with different skill sets that form a group.

This is much like the 99-01 Rams. And while I'm not a fan of what Martz did, I have always given him all the credit for changing the game like he did. Today's passing attack has his fingerprints all over it.

“The reasonable man adapts himself to the world: the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore all progress depends on the unreasonable man.”

― George Bernard Shaw

McVay isn't inventing anything here, he's using what several teams have done as far as building a WR corps. The big thing is of course having the point man under center. But it's best to have 3-4 guys who can do different things, which means multiple things to defend.

There would be no trophy or Greatest Show with Tony Banks under center even with Bruce, Holt, Az, Proehl, Faulk.

 

[Merlin]

They are definitely comparable...

Cooks isn't as big as Holt, but speed-wise and fit in offense-wise his impact is just as profound. Statistically he should be close to him too. This one's a wash IMO.

Woods isn't as good as Ike was, I think the reverend had rare route running ability. But he's close enough and a good enough fit here that statistically he should deliver very close to what Ike had. GSoT wins in this one.

Cupp is a different slot dude than Hakim was, but in many ways I think he's better than Az (everything other than explosiveness). Better hands, can make contested catches, and I think he translates a bit more to tougher playoff type games vs the best defenses. The Goffense wins in this one.

And to keep going, because I've had too much coffee here at work this morning weeeeeee...

Gurley and Faulk are a wash tbh. Gurley is bigger, Faulk was more elusive. Both have outstanding hands, receiver-like hands and body control. Both can bust big plays with a crease.

TEs during GSoT were nothing to write home about. Neither are the 2018 group, although I do like the recent involvement of Everett, not to mention Higbee's improvement in his hands (gasp!) and still have hope for the unit. For now that grouping's a wash.

OL is where things really get interesting. The GSoT unit was basically two elite players (Pace and Timmerman) and a bunch of dudes. This OL doesn't really have an elite player (Big Whit is very close to elite but he's no Pace IMO), but the average quality across the board is better. I'd call them a wash right now, and I do think this OL is primed for a very good playoff performance so we'll see.

 

[Montanaramfan]

They are definitely comparable...

Cooks isn't as big as Holt, but speed-wise and fit in offense-wise his impact is just as profound. Statistically he should be close to him too. This one's a wash IMO.

Woods isn't as good as Ike was, I think the reverend had rare route running ability. But he's close enough and a good enough fit here that statistically he should deliver very close to what Ike had.

Cupp is a different slot dude than Hakim was, but in many ways I think he's better than Az (everything other than explosiveness). Better hands, can make contested catches, and I think he translates a bit more to tougher playoff type games vs the best defenses.

And to keep going, because I've had too much coffee here at work this morning weeeeeee...

Gurley and Faulk are a wash tbh. Gurley is bigger, Faulk was more elusive. Both have outstanding hands, receiver-like hands and body control. Both can bust big plays with a crease.

TEs during GSoT were nothing to write home about. Neither are the 2018 group, although I do like the recent involvement of Everett, not to mention Higbee's improvement in his hands (gasp!) and still have hope for the unit. For now that grouping's a wash.

OL is where things really get interesting. The GSoT unit was basically two elite players (Pace and Timmerman) and a bunch of dudes. This OL doesn't really have an elite player (Big Whit is very close to elite but he's no Pace IMO), but the average quality across the board is better. I'd call them a wash right now, and I do think this OL is primed for a very good playoff performance so we'll see.

Am I the only one that gets the feeling that McVay is going to unleash the tight ends on some team when they least expect it? Look at what he did with Jordan Reed at Washington. Surely, he knows how to implement them. I'm not saying either of our guys is Reed's quality but I wouldn't put it past McVay to have something up his sleeve to use when we really need it. Can you imagine how lethal this offense could be if we started throwing to tight ends 5-6 times/game?

 

[Ram65]

*An argument could be made that you throw Ricky Proehl into that mix. He had 33/49 for 349 but 0 TD.

You have to count Proehl. He made some big third down catches. At that stage of his career he was Kupp light.

@Merlin covered things very well. I'll add things are a little easier for the passing game today with the rule changes.

 

[Merlin]

Am I the only one that gets the feeling that McVay is going to unleash the tight ends on some team when they least expect it? Look at what he did with Jordan Reed at Washington. Surely, he knows how to implement them. I'm not saying either of our guys is Reed's quality but I wouldn't put it past McVay to have something up his sleeve to use when we really need it. Can you imagine how lethal this offense could be if we started throwing to tight ends 5-6 times/game?

You're not alone there. But I think our TE group demonstrates how important the players are, how it's not always just the scheme/coaching. I think McVay looks at his TEs and imagines/wants them doing what he had in Washington, not to mention imagining how deadly this offense would become with a TE threat in the passing game. But the players gotta step up and make plays.

Everett looked pretty good last game. Higs has flashed too. Sure would be nice to see them both arrive, or even just one of them, because honestly I have written them off for the most part this season.

 

[jjab360]

You're not alone there. But I think our TE group demonstrates how important the players are, how it's not always just the scheme/coaching. I think McVay looks at his TEs and imagines/wants them doing what he had in Washington, not to mention imagining how deadly this offense would become with a TE threat in the passing game. But the players gotta step up and make plays.

Everett looked pretty good last game. Higs has flashed too. Sure would be nice to see them both arrive, or even just one of them, because honestly I have written them off for the most part this season.

Both of our TEs have played well this year in limited opportunities, but at the end of the day you'd be taking snaps and targets away from one of our elite trio of WRs who are just playing out of their minds right now

 

[Merlin]

Both of our TEs have played well this year in limited opportunities, but at the end of the day you'd be taking snaps and targets away from one of our elite trio of WRs who are just playing out of their minds right now

I think the key is having the mismatch jj. Given a mismatch being added to this offense at TE, and if the trust is there on the QB side of things, it makes the offense much harder to slow come playoff time if you encounter a hot or top-notch defense.

Right now the Rams force 4 mismatches every passing down with the trio of wideouts & Gurley. Imagine if Everette--who has some fantastic RAC ability--starts to really click in this offense. :eek:

 

[Akrasian]

Right now the Rams force 4 mismatches every passing down with the trio of wideouts & Gurley. Imagine if Everette--who has some fantastic RAC ability--starts to really click in this offense.

Or if Higbee keeps progressing and being targeted more - he's out there anyway for his blocking ability. Which since he's normally out there, other teams are less likely to pay extra attention to him.

Of course, the real question is - who runs more precise routes? Goff is more likely to throw to one of them on the goal line if he can be counted on to be where Goff expects.

 

[LesBaker]

There is SO much in that post Merlin that I have to respond this way. We've posted for nearly two decades together and this is excellent........and I have some comments.

They are definitely comparable...

Cooks isn't as big as Holt, but speed-wise and fit in offense-wise his impact is just as profound. Statistically he should be close to him too. This one's a wash IMO.

Holt was not as fast, but he was fast and was a fantastic route runner and had hands like flytraps.

I give the edge to Holt based on ability to do more than go over the top. He went over the middle too. And yeah we used to all get on him for turf diving after the harsh catch over the middle........but he made that harsh catch over the middle.

Woods isn't as good as Ike was, I think the reverend had rare route running ability. But he's close enough and a good enough fit here that statistically he should deliver very close to what Ike had. GSoT wins in this one.

Woods is really good and I have commented on his route running ability and hands. But not in the same class as Bruce. Bruce is a human master class in those two things.

Cupp is a different slot dude than Hakim was, but in many ways I think he's better than Az (everything other than explosiveness). Better hands, can make contested catches, and I think he translates a bit more to tougher playoff type games vs the best defenses. The Goffense wins in this one.

As a slot WR he is better than Az. As a wideout he isn't. This is a wash but I give the edge to Cupp because he just seems to fucking catch anything that comes at him. When the ball goes his way it's clamped down and move the chains.

And to keep going, because I've had too much coffee here at work this morning weeeeeee...

Gurley and Faulk are a wash tbh. Gurley is bigger, Faulk was more elusive. Both have outstanding hands, receiver-like hands and body control. Both can bust big plays with a crease.

Wash your mouth out with soap. I love TG but we have a little bit to go before we say they are a wash.

TEs during GSoT were nothing to write home about. Neither are the 2018 group, although I do like the recent involvement of Everett, not to mention Higbee's improvement in his hands (gasp!) and still have hope for the unit. For now that grouping's a wash.

If you held a gun to Martz's head and asked him what a TE was he would still say "a what". You'd say "say what again"

OL is where things really get interesting. The GSoT unit was basically two elite players (Pace and Timmerman) and a bunch of dudes. This OL doesn't really have an elite player (Big Whit is very close to elite but he's no Pace IMO), but the average quality across the board is better. I'd call them a wash right now, and I do think this OL is primed for a very good playoff performance so we'll see.

Pace was elite for a few years, then blah, this OL is WAY better than that OL. If the Rams could have an OL like this for 10 years they would be claiming a couple or few rings. This OL is flat out stonewalling.

You have to count Proehl. He made some big third down catches. At that stage of his career he was Kupp light.

This is the biggest play in Rams history.

Second is Bruce going to the house versus the Titans.

 

[RamsOfCastamere]

Am I the only one that gets the feeling that McVay is going to unleash the tight ends on some team when they least expect it? Look at what he did with Jordan Reed at Washington. Surely, he knows how to implement them. I'm not saying either of our guys is Reed's quality but I wouldn't put it past McVay to have something up his sleeve to use when we really need it. Can you imagine how lethal this offense could be if we started throwing to tight ends 5-6 times/game?

I kind of disagree. I think McVay used Reed a lot because he's the best option on the Skins shitty team, when he was actually on the field lol. I don't think taking five passes away from Kupp and giving them to Higbee or Everett will increase our offensive production - we're pretty much tapped out. All three of our guys run crisp routes, can stretch the field and catch. There's no need to force anything just because.

 

[Picked4td]

I kind of disagree. I think McVay used Reed a lot because he's the best option on the Skins crappy team, when he was actually on the field lol. I don't think taking five passes away from Kupp and giving them to Higbee or Everett will increase our offensive production - we're pretty much tapped out. All three of our guys run crisp routes, can stretch the field and catch. There's no need to force anything just because.

Agreed. I keep hearing people say how McVay is gonna get the TEs more involved but I just don’t see it tbh. No matter how good higbee and Everett get, neither will ever be better than any of the 3 WRs. Aside from one of the WRs or Gurley getting hurt/needing rest there’s not really a benefit to plays no both TEs.

The one exception where I could see them using 12 personnel more is short yardage/red zone where their better blocking and bigger bodies can have a bigger impact. But those are situational things that wouldn’t really effect the offense much

 

[RamsOfCastamere]

Agreed. I keep hearing people say how McVay is gonna get the TEs more involved but I just don’t see it tbh. No matter how good higbee and Everett get, neither will ever be better than any of the 3 WRs. Aside from one of the WRs or Gurley getting hurt/needing rest there’s not really a benefit to plays no both TEs.

The one exception where I could see them using 12 personnel more is short yardage/red zone where their better blocking and bigger bodies can have a bigger impact. But those are situational things that wouldn’t really effect the offense much

I said the same thing in the TE thread. Red zone packages, maybe, but then again, Everett needs to run a better route then he did on that INT.

 

[Young Ram]

Bruce and Holt in this offense would be legendary.

 

[SteveBrown]

They are definitely comparable...
Cooks isn't as big as Holt, but speed-wise and fit in offense-wise his impact is just as profound. Statistically he should be close to him too. This one's a wash IMO.

Woods isn't as good as Ike was, I think the reverend had rare route running ability. But he's close enough and a good enough fit here that statistically he should deliver very close to what Ike had. GSoT wins in this one.

Cupp is a different slot dude than Hakim was, but in many ways I think he's better than Az (everything other than explosiveness). Better hands, can make contested catches, and I think he translates a bit more to tougher playoff type games vs the best defenses. The Goffense wins in this one.

And to keep going, because I've had too much coffee here at work this morning weeeeeee...

Gurley and Faulk are a wash tbh. Gurley is bigger, Faulk was more elusive. Both have outstanding hands, receiver-like hands and body control. Both can bust big plays with a crease.
.

YOu stole my toughts....almost word for word...YES! Holt might be better, but given all the circumstances, Cooks is a better deep man, and that fills the role as good, if not better than Holt. THough Holt was amazing as a a deep threat, too. I agree on Gurely; bigger more physical. the biggest diff is Faulk is a lot smarter, but over time we may be surprised, because Gurley is obviously smart.

 

[Karate61]

Lately I have been wondering what exactly are the things/differences that make offense easier these days vs. back in GSOT days? Could someone please share what's different about the rules today that makes it easier for the offense?

One thing I recall is that a receiver used to be granted a catch if shoved out of bounds, and the ref felt the receiver would land in bounds if not shoved. But, that's an advantage compared to today's rules.

Also, here's some totals from GSOT years 2000 & 2001.

2000
Bruce: 1,471 Yards
Holt: 1,635 Yards
Hakim: 734 Yards
Faulk: 830
Total Yards: 4,670 (Proehl 441)

2001
Bruce: 1,106 Yards
Holt: 1,363 Yards
Hakim: 374 Yards
Faulk: 765
Total Yards: 3,608 (Proehl 563)

2018 Rams receivers are also ahead of pace comparded to GSOT 2000 & 2001

 

[Merlin]

I kind of disagree. I think McVay used Reed a lot because he's the best option on the Skins crappy team, when he was actually on the field lol. I don't think taking five passes away from Kupp and giving them to Higbee or Everett will increase our offensive production - we're pretty much tapped out. All three of our guys run crisp routes, can stretch the field and catch. There's no need to force anything just because.

Taking away passes from our wideouts is only one way to look at it IMO. The other way is that the key at this level is winning matchups and if one of these damn TEs were to step up (which admittedly still seems like a longshot) it wouldn't matter who makes the play.

Also it's not about increasing our offensive production. It's making this offense even tougher to slow come playoff time.

 

[Mackeyser]

I would take McVay over Martz any day a thousand times over and KNOW I made the right decision.

McVay's offense is going to score on anyone.

Martz was only going to score on some.

Martz's offense was like a dragster. I dunno if anyone could compete with it in the quarter mile. Against a D he could exploit, I dunno if any offense, ever, was as explosive. They literally could drop 40 in a half and make it look effortless.

McVay's offense is like a rally car. It's very fast, but not dragster fast. The upshot is that it doesn't upend when the slightest bump is in the road. In some ways, it only really shines once it gets off-road.

I mean, while the Vikings D is having issues, they are still a talented D and McVay's Rams put such a whoopin' on them that Mike Zimmer had never been so badly beaten in 22 years of coaching. They scored more against the Vikings than against the winless Cardinals.

Martz' offense was so finely tuned that the slightest disruption and it took HoF performances from Faulk or the WRs to salvage the game. If Ricky Proehl doesn't make that near miraculous grab, we lose to Tampa and never have a Super Bowl win. We scored 11 points in that game.

Also, McVay gets all this production while protecting the QB. Martz got all that production by exposing his QB with 7 step drops and expecting his QB to stand in and take big hit after big hit.

For me it's not close, it's McVay all the way.

I wonder if anyone has a metric for offensive efficiency that only takes into account when a team is using its full playbook to score, versus protecting a lead.

It's possible that the GSOT was the most efficient offense, ever.

And I still take McVay every day. Not even close.

Just one reason is that I can have a reasonable expectation that McVay and Goff can be together for the next 15 years and we can actually be a dynasty with Goff, Gurley, Kupp, Cooks, and Woods leading the O at the skill positions.

 

[Karate61]

I would take McVay over Martz any day a thousand times over and KNOW I made the right decision.

McVay's offense is going to score on anyone.

Martz was only going to score on some.

Martz's offense was like a dragster. I dunno if anyone could compete with it in the quarter mile. Against a D he could exploit, I dunno if any offense, ever, was as explosive. They literally could drop 40 in a half and make it look effortless.

McVay's offense is like a rally car. It's very fast, but not dragster fast. The upshot is that it doesn't upend when the slightest bump is in the road. In some ways, it only really shines once it gets off-road.

I mean, while the Vikings D is having issues, they are still a talented D and McVay's Rams put such a whoopin' on them that Mike Zimmer had never been so badly beaten in 22 years of coaching. They scored more against the Vikings than against the winless Cardinals.

Martz' offense was so finely tuned that the slightest disruption and it took HoF performances from Faulk or the WRs to salvage the game. If Ricky Proehl doesn't make that near miraculous grab, we lose to Tampa and never have a Super Bowl win. We scored 11 points in that game.

Also, McVay gets all this production while protecting the QB. Martz got all that production by exposing his QB with 7 step drops and expecting his QB to stand in and take big hit after big hit.

For me it's not close, it's McVay all the way.

I wonder if anyone has a metric for offensive efficiency that only takes into account when a team is using its full playbook to score, versus protecting a lead.

It's possible that the GSOT was the most efficient offense, ever.

And I still take McVay every day. Not even close.

Just one reason is that I can have a reasonable expectation that McVay and Goff can be together for the next 15 years and we can actually be a dynasty with Goff, Gurley, Kupp, Cooks, and Woods leading the O at the skill positions.

Totally wirh yah, but I still love me some Mike Martz, even with how crazy bat shit he went in the end! But, like you, I'd take McVay as well!

 

[RamFan503]

Also, McVay gets all this production while protecting the QB. Martz got all that production by exposing his QB with 7 step drops and expecting his QB to stand in and take big hit after big hit.

This^^^^. All day every day. Martz got his QBs killed on a regular basis. How good and long would Warner have been playing under McVay?