2015 Player Progression

[RobRams1]

I hate to say it. But all the players that you are talking about on offense and in a round about way the defensive players also. All of their progression as a professional and seeing if they are going to be good players in the NFL rely on Sam Bradford being healthy and getting these guys the ball in the right places and having the leader on the team that when it comes to crunch time can get the extra 3 wins that we need to make the playoffs. We are a 7-9 or 8-8 team with backup QB's that are not very good. If we have a healthy Bradford that can score points it will make an already good defense even that much better. Please SAM stay healthy I can't watch another year of Clemons, Hill, and Davis.

 

[FrankenRam]

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I think you are over simplifying things when it comes to being able to "incorporate" Austin into the passing game. If you look back at the games he excelled in his rookie year, you may have noticed that it came exclusively against MAN TO MAN coverage (Indy, Carolina, for example). Teams just don't play man against the Rams very often.
Say what you want about Schottenheimer, he was able to exploit man coverage when they ran up against it. Be it Austin, or even Givens, they are the most successful on crossing routes, when they can be matched up in single (man) coverage.

Teams force him to "settle in" to the windows of the zone, catching the ball while STOPPED. The only effective alternative to that is underneath crossing routes, or bubble screens. But Austin is just too small to run the deep dig, and sending him on "9" routes just isn't effective against 2-deep safeties. Again, he is just too small to win contested balls.

Forcing the ball to him, even with the Jet Sweeps, became very predictable, and less effective the more they tried.

IMO, for him to be effective, he has to rely on the others guys being more of a factor, (Quick, Britt, Cook) all becoming the focus in the intermediate passing game, which will open up the middle of the field for Austin. IF opposing LBs are forced to get deeper in their drop, it will give Austin more room on the underneath stuff.

Combine that with a successful running game, which makes the play action passing game go, it will now allow for Austin to run his routed BEHIND the LBs and in front of the Safeties.

But, with all due respect, running "pick plays" against zone defenses just don't work. I know I am in the minority here, but it just doesn't make sense to me to focus so much on making him the "go to guy" in this offense, when he is so easily taken out of the offense by simply playing zone defense against him.

What you say makes an awful lot of sense when I read it. The one 'but' that keeps coming back to me is this...Desean Jackson is listed on profootballreference.com as being 5'10"/178lb while TA is listed as 5'9"/174lb.

Unless there's some serious fudging going on in those numbers, why does DJax not seem to be 'too small'?

Austin does seem small to me when I see him standing next to other players, but I haven't seen him (that I can recall) standing next to someone who's listed at roughly the same height/weight.

 

[CoachO]

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What you say makes an awful lot of sense when I read it. The one 'but' that keeps coming back to me is this...Desean Jackson is listed on profootballreference.com as being 5'10"/178lb while TA is listed as 5'9"/174lb.

Unless there's some serious fudging going on in those numbers, why does DJax not seem to be 'too small'?

Austin does seem small to me when I see him standing next to other players, but I haven't seen him (that I can recall) standing next to someone who's listed at roughly the same height/weight.

He is barely 5'8. One of the funniest things I have seen while at training camp is when he is in the huddle lined up NEXT to Jake Long. To say he is literally a foot taller than Austin is fact.

Desean Jackson is not only taller, but "longer" than Austin. His out of frame radius is much wider than Austin. And lets look at the defenses that Jackson played against much of his early career. Plus having Maclin lined up on the other side of the field played a huge role in what teams did vs. Philadelphia.

 

[LosAngelesRams]

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What you say makes an awful lot of sense when I read it. The one 'but' that keeps coming back to me is this...Desean Jackson is listed on profootballreference.com as being 5'10"/178lb while TA is listed as 5'9"/174lb.

Unless there's some serious fudging going on in those numbers, why does DJax not seem to be 'too small'?

Austin does seem small to me when I see him standing next to other players, but I haven't seen him (that I can recall) standing next to someone who's listed at roughly the same height/weight.

I think if TA learns how to run routes better he will be able to make big plays more oftern just like Deshawn. He can be a nightmare match up as we have seen before but hes gotta polish up in little areas to be the consistent playmaker he was in college.

 

[WestCoastRam]

Yeah, TA needs to put a lot of work into running routes but if he does, he's got a chance to be special. 3rd year is always a big year for WRs. I do worry that him not getting a ton of reps at WR has hurt him though. Not sure there was much a fix for that given our QB situation.

 

[Mackeyser]

I think you are over simplifying things when it comes to being able to "incorporate" Austin into the passing game. If you look back at the games he excelled in his rookie year, you may have noticed that it came exclusively against MAN TO MAN coverage (Indy, Carolina, for example). Teams just don't play man against the Rams very often.

Say what you want about Schottenheimer, he was able to exploit man coverage when they ran up against it. Be it Austin, or even Givens, they are the most successful on crossing routes, when they can be matched up in single (man) coverage.

Teams force him to "settle in" to the windows of the zone, catching the ball while STOPPED. The only effective alternative to that is underneath crossing routes, or bubble screens. But Austin is just too small to run the deep dig, and sending him on "9" routes just isn't effective against 2-deep safeties. Again, he is just too small to win contested balls.

Forcing the ball to him, even with the Jet Sweeps, became very predictable, and less effective the more they tried.

IMO, for him to be effective, he has to rely on the others guys being more of a factor, (Quick, Britt, Cook) all becoming the focus in the intermediate passing game, which will open up the middle of the field for Austin. IF opposing LBs are forced to get deeper in their drop, it will give Austin more room on the underneath stuff.

Combine that with a successful running game, which makes the play action passing game go, it will now allow for Austin to run his routed BEHIND the LBs and in front of the Safeties.

But, with all due respect, running "pick plays" against zone defenses just don't work. I know I am in the minority here, but it just doesn't make sense to me to focus so much on making him the "go to guy" in this offense, when he is so easily taken out of the offense by simply playing zone defense against him.

Totally agree, Coach.

Austin is the X Factor... the guy that just KILLS the opposing D just when they think they've accounted for everything...stuffed the run, deep enough on D to contain the pass game... can't be everywhere, but we're stopping everything... what? where'd HE come from????

 

[jrry32]

But, with all due respect, running "pick plays" against zone defenses just don't work. I know I am in the minority here, but it just doesn't make sense to me to focus so much on making him the "go to guy" in this offense, when he is so easily taken out of the offense by simply playing zone defense against him.

If Austin is struggling to beat zone coverage, we need to get him with a great route running WR and our WR Coach and teach him how to attack zones. With his quickness, he should be able to do what Amendola, Welker, Edelman, etc. do to zone coverage. That's use his quickness, acceleration, and speed to get into the holes in the zone quickly, settle, catch the ball, and get up-field.

Unless there's some serious fudging going on in those numbers, why does DJax not seem to be 'too small'?

Because Jackson has QBs capable of hitting him in stride down the field.

He is barely 5'8. One of the funniest things I have seen while at training camp is when he is in the huddle lined up NEXT to Jake Long. To say he is literally a foot taller than Austin is fact.

Desean Jackson is not only taller, but "longer" than Austin. His out of frame radius is much wider than Austin. And lets look at the defenses that Jackson played against much of his early career. Plus having Maclin lined up on the other side of the field played a huge role in what teams did vs. Philadelphia.

Jackson is one inch taller with one inch longer arms. I don't think that's a difference maker.

 

[CoachO]

If Austin is struggling to beat zone coverage, we need to get him with a great route running WR and our WR Coach and teach him how to attack zones. With his quickness, he should be able to do what Amendola, Welker, Edelman, etc. do to zone coverage. That's use his quickness, acceleration, and speed to get into the holes in the zone quickly, settle, catch the ball, and get up-field.

I think Austin is okay with finding the soft spots in the zones. But he is no where close to having the "quicks" that an Amendola has in terms of changing direction. I have watched them try to run the same type routes in training camp, (arrow, option etc.) that Amendola was so effective running, with nowhere near the same results. In thi spast training camp, even TJ Moe ran those routes better than Austin. Austin is a dynamic and elusive player when he is moving. He has the ability to cut and change direction unlike many, but when he is forced to "settle" in to a pocket of a zone, and STOP, he tends to be limited in his ability to get back up field.

Will he improve? I would like to think he could. But his explosiveness is more in his straight line speed, not necessarily his change of direction and "stop and start". When at top speed, his cutting and juking ability is incredible. But IMO, he just doesn't have the same explosiveness as Amendola, Edelman and Welker in close quarters. Not to mention, he doesn't have anywhere close to same consistent hands that the others possess.

 

[-X-]

I think Austin is okay with finding the soft spots in the zones. But he is no where close to having the "quicks" that an Amendola has in terms of changing direction. I have watched them try to run the same type routes in training camp, (arrow, option etc.) that Amendola was so effective running, with nowhere near the same results. In thi spast training camp, even TJ Moe ran those routes better than Austin. Austin is a dynamic and elusive player when he is moving. He has the ability to cut and change direction unlike many, but when he is forced to "settle" in to a pocket of a zone, and STOP, he tends to be limited in his ability to get back up field.

Will he improve? I would like to think he could. But his explosiveness is more in his straight line speed, not necessarily his change of direction and "stop and start". When at top speed, his cutting and juking ability is incredible. But IMO, he just doesn't have the same explosiveness as Amendola, Edelman and Welker in close quarters. Not to mention, he doesn't have anywhere close to same consistent hands that the others possess.

I agree, so that begs the question. WTF did they draft him to do, exactly?
Anyone can say, "get him involved more", but that's only predicated on Austin's ability to do the things it takes to be more involved.

 

[CoachO]

I agree, so that begs the question. WTF did they draft him to do, exactly?
Anyone can say, "get him involved more", but that's only predicated on Austin's ability to do the things it takes to be more involved.

Going back to the Pre-Draft event they held for Season Ticket Holders, I recall Fisher all but tipping his hand when it came to talking about who they were interested in taking. He referred to the need to upgrade to return game on more than one occasion, especially when asked specifically about upgrading the WR position.

They were looking for "playmakers, which has been a common theme. But Fisher makes a point of including many positions in clarifying that term. He considered taking guys like Jenkins, and Ogletree as fitting that mold. So when taking someone like Austin, I honestly believe (didn't say I agree with) that they were looking as much at his contributions on ST as they were as a weapon on offense.

What they weren't counting on, IMO, was how slow Austin would be in his development. The comments made about his difficulty learning and understanding the playbook were alarming to me at the time. And now, based on Fisher's and Cignetti's recent comments on "simplifying the offense" (terminology, etc) says they still aren't satisfied with where some of these guys are when it comes to having a grasp on what they have been trying to do.

As has been discussed in other threads, this being Austin's 3rd year could be vital to his future as a viable WR. Hopefully, the light bulb comes on, as it did with Quick last year. But to me, thinking they need to force the issue by going out of their way to force the ball to him, would still be a huge mistake.

I always find it somewhat humorous when posters say they need to use Austin correctly. But in most cases, those comments don't go any further to explain just how that is. Since he isn't lighting up the scoreboard on every other touch, then it must be because "they aren't using him correctly". But I haven't seen many who seem to know what the correct way is.

I also wonder why so many people are so opposed to "running him between the tackles", when his YPC is well over 5. Too many think he should be a big play EVERY time he touches the ball. That's is never gonna be the case, IMO.

 

[-X-]

Going back to the Pre-Draft event they held for Season Ticket Holders, I recall Fisher all but tipping his hand when it came to talking about who they were interested in taking. He referred to the need to upgrade to return game on more than one occasion, especially when asked specifically about upgrading the WR position.

They were looking for "playmakers, which has been a common theme. But Fisher makes a point of including many positions in clarifying that term. He considered taking guys like Jenkins, and Ogletree as fitting that mold. So when taking someone like Austin, I honestly believe (didn't say I agree with) that they were looking as much at his contributions on ST as they were as a weapon on offense.

What they weren't counting on, IMO, was how slow Austin would be in his development. The comments made about his difficulty learning and understanding the playbook were alarming to me at the time. And now, based on Fisher's and Cignetti's recent comments on "simplifying the offense" (terminology, etc) says they still aren't satisfied with where some of these guys are when it comes to having a grasp on what they have been trying to do.

As has been discussed in other threads, this being Austin's 3rd year could be vital to his future as a viable WR. Hopefully, the light bulb comes on, as it did with Quick last year. But to me, thinking they need to force the issue by going out of their way to force the ball to him, would still be a huge mistake.

I always find it somewhat humorous when posters say they need to use Austin correctly. But in most cases, those comments don't go any further to explain just how that is. Since he isn't lighting up the scoreboard on every other touch, then it must be because "they aren't using him correctly". But I haven't seen many who seem to know what the correct way is.

I also wonder why so many people are so opposed to "running him between the tackles", when his YPC is well over 5. Too many think he should be a big play EVERY time he touches the ball. That's is never gonna be the case, IMO.

That was my suspicion as well. Always thought that he was taken primarily to be a returner and gadget player. Because lord knows we needed a jolt to the return game, and the departure of Amendola left a pretty big void. I think everyone was under the impression (myself included) that he would be able to do everything Amendola did, and do it better. We were all just looking at Austin's physical gifts and speed and thought (mistakenly), all we had to do is plug him in the same role and all of the production from the slot would remain lateral or get significantly better. Problem with that is, Amendola has thrice the football IQ and he was fearless.

The problem picking up the playbook was disheartening, but I guess it shouldn't come as a surprise because he came from a system that was 180 degrees different from what he needed to pick up here. And (not insulting him in any way), he's not a brilliant guy to begin with. It's pretty hard to get a 7 on the wonderlic. I'd think you could get a higher score if you christmas tree'd the whole test, quite honestly. I share your frustration with the complaints that he was being misused. To me, it's the same as people saying Bradford can't see the whole field. How the hell could anyone know these things? Well, you can't. All you can do is see the results and point your finger aimlessly.

If Austin breaks out this year, I'm sure the OC will get all the praise. Not Austin who worked at improving.

 

[CoachO]

That was my suspicion as well. Always thought that he was taken primarily to be a returner and gadget player. Because lord knows we needed a jolt to the return game, and the departure of Amendola left a pretty big void. I think everyone was under the impression (myself included) that he would be able to do everything Amendola did, and do it better. We were all just looking at Austin's physical gifts and speed and thought (mistakenly), all we had to do is plug him in the same role and all of the production from the slot would remain lateral or get significantly better. Problem with that is, Amendola has thrice the football IQ and he was fearless.

The problem picking up the playbook was disheartening, but I guess it shouldn't come as a surprise because he came from a system that was 180 degrees different from what he needed to pick up here. And (not insulting him in any way), he's not a brilliant guy to begin with. It's pretty hard to get a 7 on the wonderlic. I'd think you could get a higher score if you christmas tree'd the whole test, quite honestly. I share your frustration with the complaints that he was being misused. To me, it's the same as people saying Bradford can't see the whole field. How the hell could anyone know these things? Well, you can't. All you can do is see the results and point your finger aimlessly.

If Austin breaks out this year, I'm sure the OC will get all the praise. Not Austin who worked at improving.

I was as guilty as anyone who thought that exact thing. Austin is a quicker, faster version of Amendola. UGH. We can now all see how wrong that supposition was. The other thing for me, Austin hasn't shown the ability (yet) to make the tough catch in traffic like Amendola ALWAYS seemed to make. Until that changes, the confidence factor from the QB isn't gonna be very high. So his targets just aren't going to be there.

 

[Athos]

As has been discussed in other threads, this being Austin's 3rd year could be vital to his future as a viable WR. Hopefully, the light bulb comes on, as it did with Quick last year. But to me, thinking they need to force the issue by going out of their way to force the ball to him, would still be a huge mistake.

That was always my problem with the trade up, especially have picked a big project in Quick the year before. Sure, it's nice having that flashy gadget player on your term that can score from anywhere......But for playmakers, I'm still convinced Hopkins would have added just as much or more to our offense the last two years than Austin.

If Austin breaks out this year, I'm sure the OC will get all the praise. Not Austin who worked at improving.

Depends. If Austin starts picking it up way faster (and we draft someone else, who also picks it up faster) I think it would be more an indictment on Shotty's overly convoluted and complicated WR system.

 

[OC--LeftCoast]

It's pretty hard to get a 7 on the wonderlic. I'd think you could get a higher score if you christmas tree'd the whole test

Good stuff!

 

[Athos]

Austin hasn't shown the ability (yet) to make the tough catch in traffic like Amendola ALWAYS seemed to make.

Danny A had such sticky fingers playing with us. That was never and still isn't a strong suit of Austin. And much of that has to do with all those easy, soft lob tosses for screens he made his bread and butter with. I honestly think Danny A is just plain stronger than Austin anyway. Strong hands at least.

And yea....football IQ isn't even a contest.

 

[LACHAMP46]

Mo Alexander...will become known....and I wanna guess Barrett Jones...but only cause we need him to play well

 

[CoachO]

That was always my problem with the trade up, especially have picked a big project in Quick the year before. Sure, it's nice having that flashy gadget player on your term that can score from anywhere......But for playmakers, I'm still convinced Hopkins would have added just as much or more to our offense the last two years than Austin.

I have zero problems with them taking "projects" if that means they are taking players who will pan out long term. I have been one of Brian Quick's biggest boosters since day one. I have been able to see him up close and personal and have seen the athleticism and "talent" from day one. I am not one of those who think these guys need to be playing at a high level the first day they step on the field. I wold much rather they develop over time and become the best they can be, as opposed to the guys who are rushed onto the scene out of desperation.

That being said, thrusting Austin into role as "savior" as many wanted to do as soon as he got here, was unfair to him, IMO. All too often, we as fans think is automatic for these guys to step in and replicate their collegiate success. And in Austin's case, that was NEVER going to happen. Totally different systems, and with all due respect, he wasn't going to be facing Big XII "defenses" any longer.

 

[snackdaddy]

Greg Robinson: I pretty much agree with these assessments. I don't know if Robinson will ever be a perennial pro bowler like Pace, but I think he'll be the least of the problems on the line.

Tavon Austin: I might add it would help if we a QB defenses respect enough not to stack the box. With Hill, they'll stack the box, stop the run and make him beat them. With a legit QB, maybe they stay back and respect the pass which will open up the short pass more for Tavon, which I happen to believe would make him the most dangerous. Give him the ball in space.

Stedman Bailey: I think he will be a reliable possession receiver. Might be the perfect compliment to Britt, Quick and Austin.

Tre Mason: As with Austin, we need enough of a passing game to prevent defenses from stacking to box to stop the run. I do believe he's a much better than average running back with the speed to break off long ones and the strength to break tackles. Love how quick he hits the hole. He just needs to learn the nuances of being an NFL back.

Barrett Jones: I don't hold out much hope for him. I think if he was going to be a major contributor he would've been playing a lot more than he has.

EJ Gaines: He was a pleasant surprise. He could be a pro bowler in the making. I just worry about the sophomore slump. Many times there's a reason a guy isn't picked till the 6th round. They usually have limitations compared to earlier round guys. I just hope he was one who slipped through the cracks and we got lucky.

Janoris Jenkins: If the coaches can get him out of his risk/reward mentality, I believe he can be one of the better lockdown corners in the NFL. He's got the skill set. Just needs to quit gambling trying to make the big splash.

Alec Ogletree: I believe he'll be a quality backer for years to come with his talent. He just needs to be more consistent and stop trying to do more than he's supposed to. He does get caught on things. Like biting on the run on Russell Wilson's keeper for a TD. His job was to contain Wilson and he thought he was going to stop the run for a loss and it ended up a TD. Once he cleans those kinds of things up, he can be a perennial pro bowler.

TJ McDonald: I agree he had his best year. He's a good enforcer for the middle of the field. He coulda been a pro bowler 30 years ago, but today's NFL requires guys like him to adjust their game. They can't just dislodge the ball from receivers. But he's a good run stopper and can still instill fear in the receivers. Hard hits are a gamble these days. You can make a legal hit, but if the refs think its too vicious they'll throw a flag.

Lamarcus Joyner: I'm not sure what to expect either. The talent is there. The work ethic is there. There's a reason they traded up to pick him. I'm hoping it was just the rookie learning curve and injuries didn't allow him to establish himself.

All in all, most of these guys could be very good blue chip players. Jones might be the one who doesn't make it. His only chance is to stay healthy. I don't know how much he fits into their plans. I believe Bailey, Ogletree, McDonald, Mason and Robinson will be solid contributors in 2015. Jenkins will be Jenkins. He'll gamble, make some plays, get burned a few times because of it. As far as Gaines, I'm hoping he's not a flash in the pan. He could be the steal of the 2014 draft. Austin's problem is, he's a one trick pony. That trick is a good one though. And he is a valuable returner as well as a big play threat on offense. I'd just like to see Cignetti find a way to get him the ball in space. Schotty wasn't able to.

 

[Athos]

I have zero problems with them taking "projects" if that means they are taking players who will pan out long term.

I'm not so much into that. Stacking up on projects at the same position and using high picks to do it at any rate. You were right on Quick, but you could see the development in him easier. It was slow, but Quick had the body to be successful. Austin is the type that has to work on a lot more than Quick. Though, I still think Britt played a huge role in how quickly Quick was coming on before injury.

Totally different systems, and with all due respect, he wasn't going to be facing Big XII "defenses" any longer.

That's why I never thought he'd be a savior, but you can't really blame anyone in demanding/expecting/wanting far better production from a guy you trade up for, thus missing out on quite the talent left over in the 2nd round. Which is, again, why I wanted Hopkins. Such a steal at the end of the draft. Could have traded down twice in the first and still gotten Ogletree.